Tuesday, August 12, 2014

Why can bishops organise to condemn foodbanks but not genocide?

After the Holocaust, the whole of civilisation united behind two simple words: "Never Again". If the free world is not prepared to eradicate the Islamist evil spreading over the desert sands and pouring onto our polite and tolerant streets, the fate of the Christians of Mosul and the Yazidis of Sinjar surely awaits the genteel parishioners of Tower Hamlets. It is already unfolding in France, Germany and the Netherlands. It is naive to believe that England's mannerly history of relatively bloodless revolution can be sustained against the genocidal, anti-Semitic, anti-Christian pogroms of the Islamic State.

Whether we are in the End Times and approaching the coming final conflict we cannot know. There is a whiff of the Antichrist and sense of Apocalypse, but there are many antichrists and no man knows the day or hour. And as we pore over eschatological charts and await the Parousia, we have one mission and one calling: to proclaim the gospel, feed the hungry, heal the sick and mend the brokenhearted.

So it was a joy to read that the bishops of Leeds, Manchester and Worcester had called on the Government to offer asylum to the persecuted and destitute Christians of Iraq. "We have a tradition of offering sanctuary to people who are oppressed," explained the Rt Rev'd Nick Baines, Bishop of Leeds. "And it's part of the Christian heritage of this country and the law we have established that puts an obligation on us," he continued. "We also have an obligation to at least raise with the Government the possibility that we should be offering sanctuary to Christians in Iraq who have been effectively expelled under the threat of death. The Government cannot remain silent and you cannot just issue words – you've got to put something behind that. If we can't offer sanctuary to these people, then who will? Not doing so would be tantamount to the betrayal of our moral and historical obligations."

And then these three were joined by another: "Archbishop of Canterbury urges Britain to open doors to persecuted Iraqi Christians," heralded the Telegraph. But then, silence. The bishop have received no response from the Government. This utterly damning cartoon from Morten Morland in today's Times might explain why:

Or is it, quite simply, that not enough bishops have organised and united in their righteous quest in order to generate greater publicity and so exert the greatest political pressure? Why is it that 27 bishops of the Church of England can get together to castigate Cameron via the Daily Mirror over the "national crisis" of foodbanks and "failures in the benefit system", but only three can organise themselves with the Guardian to agitate over the international crisis unfolding in Iraq and the manifest failures of the Foreign Office?

Are the Daily Mirror and the Guardian really the most persuasive media by which to lobby a Conservative Prime Minister, Work and Pensions Secretary or Foreign Secretary? Shouldn't the bishops at least be attempting to speak Greek to the Greeks? Don't they appreciate that the medium is still at least part of the message?  

This is not in any sense to dispraise the efforts of the bishops of Leeds, Manchester and Worcester, or to belittle the welcome added voice of the Archbishop of Canterbury who has called out this "evil". But somebody/bodies must have done some applied administrative networking to engineer the foodbank protest and get the support of 27 bishops, whose concert of grievance was then heard at the highest levels. Why could this not have been done over the evil unfolding in Iraq?

It is, of course, too late for those who have been tortured and summarily slaughtered. What we should have said or might have done are now matters for Judgment Day. But for those who are surviving on Sinjar's mountain of hell or subsisting in the purgatorial plains of Nineveh it is not too late, and they cry out for deliverance as they weep for relief and die in their camps. It is invidious that we are prepared to condemn the cruelty and barbarism of the Islamic State but not open our borders to our suffering Christian brothers and sisters and our traumatised neighbours.   

It is inconceivable that any bishop of the Church of England has not thought, prayed or preached about this. For those who believe the Government should act beyond flying out baked beans and dropping bottles of Evian, to offer sanctuary to the thousands fleeing the Jihadist terror, His Grace is prepared to act as a conduit to establish a unified episcopal voice on this appeal:
"While conflicts rage in the Middle East, we continue to pray for peace. Britain has a history of providing refuge to the oppressed. We ask the Government to offer sanctuary to Christians and others who have been expelled under threat of death."
Those Anglican Bishops and Archbishops who make this appeal to the Government currently include:
Justin Welby, Canterbury
John Sentamu, York
Nick Baines, Leeds
David Walker, Manchester
John Inge, Worcester
Mark Rylands, Shrewsbury
Jonathan Gledhill, Lichfield
Geoff Annas, Stafford
Clive Gregory, Wolverhampton
Jonathan Clark, Croydon
Pete Broadbent, Willesden
Graham Usher, Dudley
Steven Croft, Sheffield
Ordinaries and others include:
John Hall, Dean of Westminster
Should any bishop wish to add his name, please do so. If you think your bishop might, please contact him and request that he make his support known. Bless you.


Blogger Dreadnaught said...

For America, Britain and the Western powers, the rise of Isis and the Caliphate is the ultimate disaster. Whatever they intended by their invasion of Iraq in 2003 and their efforts to get rid of Assad in Syria since 2011, it was not to see the creation of a jihadi state spanning northern Iraq and Syria run by a movement a hundred times bigger and much better organised than the al-Qaida of Osama bin Laden. The war on terror for which civil liberties have been curtailed and hundreds of billions of dollars spent has failed miserably. The belief that Isis is interested only in ‘Muslim against Muslim’ struggles is another instance of wishful thinking: Isis has shown it will fight anybody who doesn’t adhere to its bigoted, puritanical and violent variant of Islam. Where Isis differs from al-Qaida is that it’s a well-run military organisation that is very careful in choosing its targets and the optimum moment to attack them.

Patrick Cockburn
London Review of Books

12 August 2014 at 10:52  
Blogger IanCad said...

Out of forty!!

Well their fingers must still be in wind.

Better not be too hasty.

See what the others do first.

Dear Lord! How we have sunk.

Don't despair YG.

There are those who have not yet fallen to Baal.
They listen.

Great cartoon BTW.

12 August 2014 at 11:04  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

Too much condemnation of Muslims might lead to questions being asked which could rock an already creaky and leaky boat.

There are certain questions best left unasked, lest they set in motion a train of thought which would examine the doctrinal basis for the slaughter being carried out in Iraq, and whose logical conclusions could, in the worst case, lead to Islamophobia.

12 August 2014 at 11:05  
Blogger Len said...

It seems our Government in the UK can disconnect from the suffering and the dying of potentially thousands of innocent men women and children who are being butchered for no other reason than they are infidels in the eyes of a barbaric mob.
They will be given aid to prolong their lives but no assistance to prevent genocide. This is classic non involvement much as Pilate washing his hands and denying any responsibility for what happens afterwards.
The World is a very small place now and what happens to a minority affects the whole.We cannot throw in a few water bottles and let them 'get on with it'.
Meanwhile Cameron suns himself on a beach somewhere no doubt enjoying his holiday.

12 August 2014 at 11:18  
Blogger Shadrach said...

Seanrobsville said...
There are certain questions best left unasked, lest they set in motion a train of thought which would examine the doctrinal basis for the slaughter being carried out in Iraq, and whose logical conclusions could, in the worst case, lead to Islamophobia.

What is wrong with questioning the doctrine of an organisation, I hesitate to call it a religion, that sets out to murder or enslave everyone who does not share their beliefs? The word Islamaphobia, like Homophobia, was created to stifle criticism.

Christianity also has been criticised because of its lack of 'Love' over certain issues. Love is not the issue, righteousness is the issue. Murder and persecution is wrong in any society and condemnation of it should never be shied from.

12 August 2014 at 11:35  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Clearly, IS's target is all those with wrong belief: hence the savagery against the Christians and the Yazidi.

However, since by IS criteria there's a lot of wrong belief within Islam, that's got to be good news for everybody else.

Iran, having to focus on this rising Sunni threat, is diverted from donating missiles to Hezb'allah. That gives Israel a bit of a break.

The IS are said to take a dim view of the Ka'aba shrine: seeing it as worship of a rock rather than worship of Allah. Since they've already destroyed nine or so Shia shrines in Iraq who knows what might be next?

If we could only keep them focused just on other Muslims, the Islamic threat might well resolve itself from within.

Alas, once they've done appropriate purging, they'll probably look outwards again.

12 August 2014 at 11:40  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Totally agree with you, Shadrach...Islam is a political movement as much as it is cloaked in religion...there is right and wrong n this world, and mass slaughter is clearly wrong. It is not just the bishops who should be speaking out in protest, it is the rest of us, every one of us...and after we have voiced our disgust, set about doing something practical.

12 August 2014 at 11:40  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...


"They will be given aid to prolong their lives but no assistance to prevent genocide. This is classic non involvement much as Pilate washing his hands and denying any responsibility for what happens afterwards." It reminds old ernst of fattening up turkeys before christams...can't have people saying we are not being humane to our food, can we.

It appears that the left wing of the CofE see Christ's church more as a charity than a establishment of worship, prayer and care for we CHRISTIANS.

They will rage on about feeding people who really do not care about the things of God and who most likely when fed forget the body agitating and feeding them and it's mission yet the Bishops can forget the persecution of our BROTHERS AND SISTERS in Christ as if they are amputated from His Body solely by distance and must be none of our concern.

What biased socialistic perversity has infiltrated the church so that we cannot do both things simultaneously...feeding the poor and LOOKING AFTER OUR OWN WHEN IN CRISIS. WE FOLLOW A KING THE WORLD REJECTS, WE ARE NOT CALLED TO MERELY CHARITY WORKERS TO THE WORLD!!

1st Timothy 5:8 declares emphatically;
But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he has denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

Perhaps the bishops haven't got as far as reading what St Paul demands of believers towards their own??

What utterly damned shepherds we have leading the flock. SHAME ON THEM!!!

E S Blofeld

12 August 2014 at 11:43  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

@ Shadrach
As the primary duty of bishops in modern Britain is to maintain community cohesion, the emergence of Islamophobia will be viewed as a far worse evil than the slaughter of a few million Christians and others somewhere east of Suez.

12 August 2014 at 11:45  
Blogger The Explorer said...

seanrobsville @ 11:45


From a typical bishoply perspective (so far as I can gauge, and with honourable exceptions) the function of the Church is to be the conscience of the nation. (In financial matters, that is, not sexual.)

Membership is of the body politic, not of the Body of Christ which is the community of believers across space and time.

If you want to talk about actual belief, don't ask the shepherds. You have to go to the flock.

12 August 2014 at 11:59  
Blogger bluedog said...

The Explorer says, 'The IS are said to take a dim view of the Ka'aba shrine: seeing it as worship of a rock rather than worship of Allah.'

Another thing that probably offends IS is that the Saudis have apparently surrounded the Kabaa with five star hotels, effectively converting the Haj into an ritzy tourist destination.

One gets the feeling that the whole of Islam could go pear-shaped very quickly. No bad thing, either.

12 August 2014 at 12:06  
Blogger Mark Williams said...

Didn't Nigel Farage say we should give Iraqi Christians asylum weeks ago? Perhaps the Bishops consider anything that he's in favour of they cannot get behind.

12 August 2014 at 12:15  
Blogger Ivan said...

Dreadnaught @10:52, anyone with more than two cells for a brain, me and you included can figure out that at a time like this, the last thing one wants is to destablise Assad the Syrian, yet this is precisely what Obama intends with his package for the "moderate" Syrian rebels


The Hildebeast is if anything even worse:


Is this a case of heartbreakingly naive American bumblers, blundering along or something much more sinister?

I tend to the latter interpretation, so the question is not a rhetorical one for me.

12 August 2014 at 12:16  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Ivan @ 12:16

Can you expand a bit on "something much more sinister" so I can see if your interpretation coincides with mine?

(If you prefer not to on a public forum, I quite understand.)

12 August 2014 at 12:26  
Blogger Preacher said...

Wise words from I.C @ 11.04. One prays that even if it's just shame that promotes a further response from the 'Missing' 36, that they will oblige even if it's just to save face.

Baroness Warsi saw what was coming & disappeared in a smokescreen of complaints & feigned disgust & rant when she knew her position of 'neutrality' was about to become untenable.
It should not Need an outcry from the Bishops to motivate this shower of time servers, but if that's what it takes then it's essential that these Church leaders raise the roof before more time & lives are lost.

The IS thugs have only been able to be so effective because of the poor training of the Iraqi army, who left them a wholly serviceable stockpile of the latest weapons & equipment. Why didn't they wreck, destroy or disable the arsenals before they fled? it would have given them more time to retreat & slowed the movement & effective fire power of these butchers who would have been hamstrung in accomplishing the success they have enjoyed.

12 August 2014 at 12:32  
Blogger Nath said...

My gut instinct is that Turkey will have a big role to play in this if we are to have a revived and last empire (ala Daniel). People often talk about the revived roman empire. I'm more inclined to think about the Eastern Roman Empire, the Ottomans.

I can see IS destabilising the region so much that few nation states remain standing bar Turkey. Under a pretext of regionalisation, along the lines of the EU, I can certainly imagine a new, devolved caliphate emerging under Turkish hegemony. Perhaps the rhumours of CIA involvement with IS are true. A Turkish dominated and controlled M.E. would certainly be welcomed by their close, NATO ally, the USA.

Watch and pray friends. If this or something rather similar happens then I think the wiff His Grace can detect may become a stench. We shall see.

12 August 2014 at 12:50  
Blogger Ivan said...

Explorer, by sinister, I mean the US is aiming in the interim for maximal chaos, within a controlled setting, only limited by concerns for a stable Turkey and a safe Israel, experimenting if you will, to see outcomes that can be speeded up and played out in real time. The intend is to arrive at stable configurations, preferably ones that undermine the Russians and the Iranians, so that they can derive some perverse satisfaction from having seen an experiment gone right. There will be time enough to cry over the dead, for confessions in the bar, but in the meantime like scientists study the locusts, what greater pleasure can there be than finding things out?

These days I hang around conspiracy sites, so I am probably overdue for my meds.

12 August 2014 at 12:54  
Blogger Roy said...

In 1943, not very far from British shores, there was another religious minority threatened with genocide and another group of bishops had to decide what to do about it. The country I am talking about is Denmark, and the bishops were those of the Lutheran Church.

The Danish Resistance had been tipped off, somehow, about the German plans to round up the Jews on a particular date and so began to make plans to save them.

Just days before the round up of the Jews was to begin, the American magazine Time, carried an article about the Danish Lutheran Church with the headline, "Ready for Martyrdom." The article quoted the bishop of Copenhagen, Hans Fuglsang-Damgaard as saying, "we shall pray and kindle the spirit. There was never any use for cowardly clergymen, least of all today."

As soon as the German action began, Bishop Fuglsang-Damgaard wrote a letter to the German authorities that was countersigned by all the Danish Lutheran bishops. The letter condemned the persecution of the Jews, emphasised the Jewish roots of Christianity and concluded with a quotation from the Acts of the Apostles "we must obey God rather than men." The following Sunday the Bishops' letter was read out in every Lutheran church in Denmark.

There is an English translation of the Bishops' letter at the link below.


Thanks to the efforts of many ordinary Danes (including those who did not follow any religion) most of the Danish Jews were smuggled to safety in neutral Sweden and therefore over 90% of them survived the holocaust.

There is no need for me to contrast the actions of the Danish Lutheran bishops living under German occupation with the inaction of British Anglican bishops living in what is still a free country.

(I was going to say "English Anglican bishops" but then I realised there is no reason to let the bishops in the Church in Wales or the Scottish Episcopal Church off the hook - or Non-Conformist or Roman Catholic leaders either).

12 August 2014 at 13:07  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

Most of them have faith.

Which is the antithesis of action.

12 August 2014 at 13:09  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Sidney Deane

Which is the antithesis of action.

That's a cute throwaway line. A nicely encapsulated cheap shot perfectly sized for Twitter.

But it's a colossally duplicitous remark, intentionally confusing as it does the difference between an act and a motivation for an act. You know better. But what is that compared to a sucker punch in the kidneys?


12 August 2014 at 13:27  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Sidney @ 13;09

Faith in what?

12 August 2014 at 13:37  
Blogger Time For Tea said...

Nath @ 12:50pm

If you're interested in the revived empire in Daniel, might I suggest a very interesting book on the subject by Joel Richardson called Mideast Beast: The Scriptural Case for an Islamic Antichrist. He has some interesting theories which tie in with current world events...

12 August 2014 at 14:01  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

Unless it is prepared to kill every Muslim on the planet and remove every trace of Islam, the free world cannot eradicate the ‘Islamist evil’ but we can considerably lessen the threat Islam presents to the West by reducing, preferably to zero, the West’s Muslim population. For our way of life to have any chance of surviving, the deed will have to be done, sooner or later. Best do it sooner while the numbers are still reasonably manageable.

Before the Diocese of Bradford was put out of its misery, its bishop rejoiced in the fact that some of his parishes were 95 per cent Muslim, saying it was ‘a fantastic opportunity’. If Iraqi Christians are brought here, they will be able to tell Nick Baines to his face just how fantastic it is to be a Christian in a Muslim land.

12 August 2014 at 14:18  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Why do we not have politicians with the backbone of Geert Wilders. They rush to block him from entering the UK but leave the gates open for any returning Jihad Junkie bock home to London, Birmingham Bradford and wherever.

Ignore the cheesy American host, listen to Wilders - does he not speak what we all believe to be the truth about Islam and its global intentions?


12 August 2014 at 14:20  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Ivan @ 12:54

A bit abstruse for me. Certainly more complicated than what I was thinking: namely, possible Islamic sympathies of a certain US politician.

12 August 2014 at 14:32  
Blogger IanCad said...

Johnny R. @ 14:18 wrote:

"Unless it is prepared to kill every Muslim on the planet ---

And ended:

---Best do it sooner while the numbers are still reasonably manageable."

Now, I've read what was in between. Several times; and am finding it mighty hard to conclude other than what you are advocating is genocide.

These people are our fellow subjects and the vast majority contribute greatly to the economy, the fabric and the culture of our land. We would be the poorer without them.

It is passing strange, and disturbing, that when the subject of the thread is the intolerance of man to his brothers, you are advocating the same.

Or, at least, seem to be.

Please correct me if I am wrong.

12 August 2014 at 15:03  
Blogger Len said...

I think the concept of fighting and eradicating Islamic terrorists is a non starter.
The power behind radical Islam and other terror organizations is a malignant spiritual power operating through willing (often totally ignorant) human beings.Cut off one head and it will grow another.
We see this same evil spiritual force energizing such as Hitler and the organization of the death camps and the attempt to totally destroy the Jewish people.We see the same evil in Stalin`s Russia Bosnia and the Genocide there, in Cambodia the list goes on....
We cannot eradicate evil at this point in time but we can recognize evil and resist it with whatever means possible.
To do nothing is not an option if we wish to preserve what it has taken centuries to build up in the West.

12 August 2014 at 15:05  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

It would be a strong message if all Christian leaders signed up for a joint declaration. Would it not also be a good idea if the Archbishop and the Pope ssued a joint declaration like they did on Slavery?
Our first priority must be helping the Christians of Iraq. They would surely be a welcome addition to British society.

12 August 2014 at 15:21  
Blogger HeartAttackSurvivor said...

As Edmund Burke's paraphrase of JS Mill observed: "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

Shame on all those self-proclaimed "good men", indeed. You should hang your heads low.

12 August 2014 at 15:42  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ IanCad (15:03)—Genocide? Heaven forbid. ‘Reduce’ as in assisted repatriation and/or a one child policy for Muslims who choose to remain in the West.

It strikes me that Britain’s reputation for tolerance was earned in the days when we had precious little about which to be intolerant. If ridding ourselves of one of the world’s most intolerant religions makes us look less tolerant, I can live with that. The alternative is to continue tolerating Islam and, eventually, be swallowed up by it.

Fellow subjects who are the carriers of a vile religion. For their sake and for ours, it is better that we live apart, the further the better. The ONS report Focus on Religion reveals that Muslims are the least likely to be in work, the least likely to be looking for work, the most likely to be sick and the most likely to be disabled. In all probability, we would be richer without them but the economic argument is the least of our concerns.

12 August 2014 at 15:50  
Blogger Patrick Cox said...

I suspect that many, like the General Synod, are unable to grasp the fact that Israel is NOT the most evil aggressor in the Middle East, and are unwilling to break with their long held belief that the 'Palestinian Tragedy' is at the root of all Middle Eastern problems, rather than a manifestation of a much deeper and more intractable problem with Islam itself.

It is easier to blame Israel, to accuse it of making war on children, or to call for boycotts of the one democratic society in the Middle East, than it is to get to grips with the real problem there - which is that Hamas, ISIS, Fatah, Muslim Brotherhood et al are 'cults of death' who are so fixated on achieving a 'pure' Islamic world and hegemony they consider killing and dying for it will bring it about. Their version of Islam is nothing less than a Cult of Death - but many, both in the church and in politics cannot bring themselves to admit it.

12 August 2014 at 16:00  
Blogger Shadrach said...

The primary duty of bishops in Britain, modern or not, is not to maintain community cohesion but shepherd the shepherds. They are not community policemen. They need to ensure the Gospel of Jesus is preached in truth.

You are right, there is an evil at work, only those who have an understanding of the spiritual world can discern it. It will take a mighty work of God and his people to oppose it.

On the ball as always. The church is a charity but not social workers as opposed to worshipers of the Lamb.
When an individual is saved and Christ lives in them, they will want to do whatever works God calls them to.

12 August 2014 at 16:09  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Is there a word for "fear of being called an Islamophobe"?

Islamophobophobia, perhaps.

12 August 2014 at 16:11  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Uncle Brian @ 16:11

Like it.

I had a friend whose brother had contracted septicaemia from a spider bite and died as a result.

She had arachnophobia: a rational fear of spiders based on the fact that spiders can harm you, and potentially kill you. (This bite had occurred in Britain: I'm not talking Australian funnel spider or whatever.)

So if we define phobia as 'a rational fear of something dangerous' then I have no quarrel with Islamophobia as a concept. Airline travel, Drummer Rigby, events in the Middle East: all bear it out.

The problem is, we are meant to think of a phobia as an irrational fear of something harmless.

And if it is to have that meaning, then we need a new word for arachnophobia. And, for that matter, for Islamophobia.

12 August 2014 at 16:34  
Blogger Maalaistollo said...

Could it be that those in positions of influence, both in the government and the C of E, have long since accepted the inevitability of the triumph of Islam and are taking care not to have anything Islamophobic on their CVs, which might impair their prospects of advancement under the new regime? Surely for them it's just a matter of quietly getting ahead of the game (ie not being as obvious about it as Mr Galloway). When the great day dawns it'll be a bit like the liberation of France, where everybody will turn out to have been in the Resistance all along.

12 August 2014 at 16:54  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...


Just pointing to the fact that most believers will pray instead of actually doing something.

You will argue that praying is doing something.

Yet we won't see you simply praying when your daughter's been run over will we. No, you'll take real meaningful action.

12 August 2014 at 18:52  
Blogger IanCad said...

Johnny R. @ 15:50

Well; were I a Muslim I would be somewhat relieved that gas chambers are not on the cards.

However, apartheid, forced sterilization and exile seem to be still quite in play as far as you're concerned. That one child policy is going to be a bugger to enforce. More abortions.

Johnny, I am British and I love my country. Its heritage and tradition of liberty is precious and has been a light to the world. It must not be dimmed.

It is deeply distressing to me, that on this blog - an oasis of liberty - the wretched policies such as those you propose are met with so little protest.

12 August 2014 at 18:57  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Carl, a little over the top on Sydney Deane perhaps, cowboy? I know what he means with the criticism, although he could have expanded on it a bit more of course. Faith can be used and often is misused to avoid action or expenses. In helping with fundraisers for IDF ground troops and Sderot residents, I'm starting to get a lot of lectures about having faith that all will work out, that the Messiah is obviously about to arrive as we are "clearly" in the last days, that everything is in the hands of God and we can't affect anything except through prayer, that history was predetermined by God and so forth. An interesting array of theological approaches and the beauty of the the faith alone strategy is that any attempt to argue otherwise dooms you as an irreligious cynic.

12 August 2014 at 19:38  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

We need to look at all the options, and one of them is to keep the oppressed there in their land. “They shall not be moved” should be the tune. While non-muslims or even muslims of the wrong persuasion remain on the ground, the West is justified in going in and giving these crazed Islamic State vermin what for. They have to be contained, otherwise their terror state will grow, as will the incidents of international terrorism that will be instigated by them abroad. The Inspector’s blood runs cold when he looks to the not too far future when these blighters are actively supporting their cousins in France, Germany, the Netherlands and of course the UK.

Short term fixes are not going to cut it. The long term fix will - to wit, a return to the only form of government that works in the muslim Middle East – secular dictatorships wielded by ‘friends of the West’. Benign hopefully, but we won’t lose any sleep if one or more isn’t. It’s the West that will have to arrange this for them, and if necessary, maintain the new strong men who come forward. They may not have the wherewithal to do it themselves.

So there you go. A lasting peace and a final solution to the Islamic requisite of mass murder in the name of Allah.

We have had a nasty lesson from interfering in the region. Let us not ignore what we have learnt.

12 August 2014 at 19:38  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Islamophobophobia! (Uncle Brian)


12 August 2014 at 19:41  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

IanCad. One would say we are a tight knit bunch here, and nearly everyone is familiar with the other’s opinions. Thus, with the case of Johnny R’s comments, it need not be raised that they are disapproved of by those who do. It’s taken as read.

12 August 2014 at 19:44  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Inspector, I'm afraid that the secular dictatorship route has failed too...they almost invariably default to ultra nationalist versions of communism or fascism, then they screw up after a while, people cry out for more religion and then you get Iran, ISIS or Hamas. The problem seems deeper than choice of governments or religion versus secularism and I dont think there is a solution in sight other than managing the status quo and staying ahead by a step or two.

12 August 2014 at 20:14  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


Your point is well made if depressing. I think before long we are all going to get a little of what it is to be Israel. I wonder if some attitudes might then change and with it, a bit more understanding of what is happening in Gaza.

12 August 2014 at 20:20  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Not so sure you’re right Avi. One realises the Middle East has always been a pot of piss, but it didn’t go badly wrong until Saddam tried to annex Kuwait. He had his fingers burnt, and it wouldn’t have happened again. And Gadhafi had his head slapped by US bombers some years before, so he kept his fairly low thereafter.

Why we had to topple a perfectly able and contrite tyrant like Saddam is the question. The West has brought it all upon themselves, as well as death to peoples whom a few years ago didn’t expect it in this manner....

12 August 2014 at 20:55  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Sidney Deane

Yet we won't see you simply praying when your daughter's been run over will we. No, you'll take real meaningful action.

When my younger daughter nearly died of whooping cough at the age of three weeks, I prayed for her. I also took her to the hospital. Are you so untaught that you think these two things contradict each other? Then you understand neither God nor prayer. You do not understand that God ordains both means and ends. Go and learn what this means before you presume to lecture me on what I would or would not do. Faith is not the author of paralysis. It is the author of action in the face of obvious self-interest. It is that which impels man to please God instead of himself. It is that which trusts the efforts of man to the Providence of God.

And you would suggest to me that faith is what would drive me to sit and watch while my daughter dies. I have nearly been there. If she had died, I would have had a context of understanding. There would have been sorrow but never despair. What would you have?


12 August 2014 at 21:18  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

No, Avi, I wasn't over the top. He is smart enough to know what he said. And what he said is transparently false. By faith Abraham offered up Isaac. By faith, David killed Goliath. By faith, Hezekiah saved Jerusalem. The examples multiply endlessly. To say that faith is the opposite of action is childishly ignorant. And Sidney Deane is not childishly ignorant.


12 August 2014 at 21:24  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ IanCad (18:57)—were I a Muslim I would be somewhat relieved that gas chambers are not on the cards

‘In Germany, there have been reports of protesters chanting “Jews to the gas chambers”.’—Daily Mail

It seems you need to remove ‘not’ from your sentence. As for the remainder, the desire of Muslims to live in their own communities could, I suppose, be described as apartheid, and ‘forced sterilization’ and ‘exile’ may have been chosen more for their dramatic effect than their accurate reflection of my views.

I note you say that Britain’s heritage and tradition of liberty has been a light to the world. On that we can agree. My proposals for rekindling the light having been condemned as wretched, please outline your own. I promise not to misrepresent them.

12 August 2014 at 21:40  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Clive, I don't think it's lack of understanding Israel lacks from. In an age where almost everyone is grossed out by Islamism, "Palestinians" are treated as a cute non-Muslim mascot, realities and appearances notwithstanding, and the uncharacteristically overboard concern for their welfare stops dead at Israel's borders, reaching comical absurdities where they can be oppressed for generations and even killed by the tenth of thousands by everyone else to a chorus of yawns by the chronic palestinianists everywhere. The problem, I think, is simply Israel's existence.

It may seem that way, Inspector, but neither Iraq nor Libya were going to stay either tame or secular for long. The day old Muamar went from wearing a colonel's outfit with aviator shades and took to desert robes and living in tents and Saddam commissioned a copy of the Koran inscribed with his own blood, it became clear that their brief secular era (inspired and helped along by the defunct USSR) was definitely over. Secularism was a short-lived glitch in every Muslim corner. It didn't even last out Ataturk's grandchildren....and no one's laid a hand on Turkey. Yet.

My quick and lazy explanation is that the situation of insane amounts of our petrodollars concentrating in fewer hands and a rapid decline in living standards of the majorities in the ME made for a bounce-back of Islam. Now, take a a little bit of those petrodollars and throw them at the religious crazies willing to fight your wars as proxies...like Hezbollah, Hamas, the Brotherhood, the PA, al Qaida, ISIS, etc...and what you get is what we have now.

12 August 2014 at 21:46  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

PS, Inspector, a simpler way would be to look at it as a war for our tribute. The moment the West started paying for their oil, rather than grabbing it and then paying ever-incteasing amounts of tribute for terror-free Olympics and such, the writing was on the wall.

12 August 2014 at 21:49  
Blogger IanCad said...

True indeed IGIO @ 19:44

However this blog is viewed by a thousand different followers. Many, if not most, casual or occasional.
It would never do to give those folk the impression that we are completely indifferent to the more extreme views posted by the regulars.

Johnny R

For the life of me I cannot see how, in any way, your proposals could be described as " rekindling the light"

Certainly, your assertion that Muslims want to live in their own communities is self evident.
But, the same applies to nearly all immigrant groups. It takes a few generations to work out.

12 August 2014 at 22:13  
Blogger bluedog said...

Excellent comment, Roy @ 13.07.

Mr IanCad, @ 15.03 @ 18.57, you say, 'These people are our fellow subjects and the vast majority contribute greatly to the economy, the fabric and the culture of our land. We would be the poorer without them.'

And, 'Johnny, I am British and I love my country. Its heritage and tradition of liberty is precious and has been a light to the world. It must not be dimmed'.

Just as the Muslims think they are doing it right, so it seems that there are non-Muslims who believe that the Muslims are not doing it wrong.

Both demographics are a threat to Western liberal democracy. Despite all the evidence, the terrorist attacks, the demands for the alien legal code of sharia, the intolerance of other creeds and now the persecution and genocide of Christians and other minorities in the Middle East, it seems that there are some who cannot recognise an existential threat when they see it.

It was ever thus. But as long as the majority do see the threat and have the capacity to relate that threat to their own situation, there is hope.

Think on this. If you were a Christian or a Yazidi in Iraq, while loving your country and dreading the thought of leaving, you would welcome resettlement in the West; we offer a lifeline, literally. What message would you bring to the West about Islam? Would it be, don't worry, be happy, the Muslims are fine? Or would it be more cautious?

After what they have suffered, one could scarcely imagine Iraqi Christians looking forward to a day in which the West has a Muslim majority. They too may say, 'Never again'.

In short, what does it take to persuade you that there is a problem?

12 August 2014 at 22:18  
Blogger IanCad said...

Good Lord bluedog I have been one of the strongest agitators on this blog for action to give refuge and help to those oppressed in Iraq.

I will not however be a advocate for those who wish to change our system of justice to favour one group over another.

Sure there's a problem. A problem that exists through not enforcing our laws; offering welfare to the able-bodied, allowing distant relatives immigration rights.
Failing to throw the book at those who ship our daughters overseas to arranged marriages.
Female mutilation. Treason, sedition.
We have the law and it should be used.

12 August 2014 at 22:37  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

What makes people think there is a good solution? As HG indicated, the terrible End Times conflagration was predicted by Jesus, so its not as if any words, actions or plans of ours can stop what is destined. Andxit had to come in some generation, why not ours? But we must act correctly as long as we can.

PS Mr Deane: I have written to my MP and MEP asking for asylum to be given to at least several thousand exiled Mosul Christians and sent a substantial cash donation to Open Doors (an established charity working with persecuted Christians). Because of my faith which commands charity. And I prayed.

Feel free to tell us what you'e done other than drop a few Dawkinist stink bombs.

Grow up or piss off.

12 August 2014 at 23:05  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness! What a mess the world is in. It would be wonderful if we could all sit down over a cup of Earl Grey and a plate of hobnobs to put prejudice and hatred aside, and work towards common goals and understanding. But it seems we can't. In which case, at least the West has nukes, so a bit of gunboat diplomacy is an option. Here in Barchester we are getting pretty fed up with our bearded savages and the exhortations from on high to be diverse and multicultural...sod that. I am for my own people my own culture and my own religion. I don't want my country overtaken by savages and my grandchildren to become dhimmis.

12 August 2014 at 23:09  
Blogger JimS said...

IanCad @22:13

How many generations did it take the European-Americans to adopt the culture of the Native Americans?

Muslims know they are right, we are too 'tolerant' to say they aren't. It's a ratchet and it only goes one way.

12 August 2014 at 23:14  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

A lot f comments!


"These days I hang around conspiracy sites, so I am probably overdue for my meds."

Jack is not so sure. There are games within games in international politics.


"The power behind radical Islam and other terror organizations is a malignant spiritual power operating through willing (often totally ignorant) human beings.Cut off one head and it will grow another."

Jack says you have the measure of it.

The atrocities in Iraq and Syria is not just about Islam. It is a particular malignant variant. What we are witnessing has unique qualities. Conflicts often arise because of long held grievances and 'pay back'. Eventually people see the evil in endless killing and settle their differences.

This Islamic State has recruited men from around the world with an aggressive interpretation of Islamic. They are consumed with hatred and commit then rejoice and publicise every barbaric act of murder. ISIS are attracting evil men from across the world to their cause. They murder for pleasure - not for *Allah*.

Clive M

"It would be a strong message if all Christian leaders signed up for a joint declaration. Would it not also be a good idea if the Archbishop and the Pope issued a joint declaration like they did on Slavery?"


Have we witnessed such evil in generations? All Christians recognised the right to self-defence in the face of such threats. Prayer and action is needed.

Supporting military action, Archbishop Giorgio Lingua, the Vatican nuncio to Iraq, said, "This is something that had to be done, otherwise [the Islamic State] could not be stopped."
The Chaldean Patriarch, Louis Sako of Baghdad, said, "There is a need of international support and a professional, well-equipped army. The situation is going from bad to worse."


"Faith is not the author of paralysis. It is the author of action in the face of obvious self-interest."

Self interest - or what is moral?

"By faith Abraham offered up Isaac. By faith, David killed Goliath. By faith, Hezekiah saved Jerusalem."

And none of the above acted in "self interest". They did what they discerned God called them to do.

12 August 2014 at 23:35  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


"In the face of" means "in conscious opposition to." Really, you Brits need to learn basic English. Lessons available upon request.



12 August 2014 at 23:44  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Oooops ... English comprehension, as many communicants know by now, is not one of Jack's strong points. Hasty reading and all that.


13 August 2014 at 00:56  
Blogger Ivan said...

Explorer @14:32, Obama is as Muslim as myself, which is to say not at all. The Obama as a Muslim meme was a stupid affectation of the brain-dead , of whom I was one, when he was campaigning in 2007/08.

If one wants to tag his religion, then liberal Jew would be the right designation. Annenberg, Axelrod, various bankers, Summers, etc, the decisive people who helped him rise through the Chicago machine and thence to Washington were largely liberal Jews. There is nothing wrong with this, there was no conspiracy at all and everything was out in the open. The only idiots remaining are the Christian Zionists (not you certainly) who see end time conspiracies involving Muslims. The Muslims have never been that smart, vicious and depraved yes, but nothing that cannot be handled once the correct matrix of stresses come into play. Once again before I have to pass under the suspicion of being the remaining antisemite, in the wake of the lamented Corrigan, there was nothing untoward involved in the rise of Obama, it was normal politics played out in the open.

13 August 2014 at 01:53  
Blogger Ivan said...

Happy Jack @23:35

A lot f comments!

A Freudian slip? How dare you sir!

13 August 2014 at 01:58  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


It's kind of archaic to keep calling it English, don't you think? We should probably get around to calling it American - what with all the improvements and innovations we have added. Then it would be correct to say that you speak Britified American.

Hey! There's one of those new innovations. Britify: verb. To make food unpalatable.


13 August 2014 at 04:14  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Ivan @ 01:53

Thanks for that.

Add Saul Alinsky to the mix, and I see exactly where you're coming from.

13 August 2014 at 07:19  
Blogger IanCad said...

Ivan wrote:

"--there was nothing untoward involved in the rise of Obama, it was normal politics played out in the open."

Absolutely spot on.

Carl wrote:

"Britify: verb. To make food unpalatable."

Now, perhaps when you were over here during the Normandy landings, when food was rationed, that may have been the case.

O how times have changed!
British food and cooking has been transformed in a generation.
Innovative chefs, far better and more varied ingredients. Much, much cheaper, and tastier as well. As I let out a notch on my belt allow me to also observe that a dynamic entrepreneurial spirit is afoot throughout the land.
Remember, we Brits invented world trade.

Jim S

Sorry Jim, I don't see the parallel in your first sentence.

Neither am I acquainted with any Christians who are "Too Tolerant" to loudly sing the praises of the Saviour and boldy declare that He is The Way, The Truth and The light. As you seem to imply in the second.


13 August 2014 at 08:09  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Happy Jack

"Have we witnessed such evil in generations?"

No I don't think we have. And the evil is coming our way.

13 August 2014 at 08:10  
Blogger IanCad said...


Yesterday there were four.
Today there are five.
A 25% increase in one day.
In another nine or so days the whole lot will have signed on.

Great work.
Leadership, that's the thing.

13 August 2014 at 08:35  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


Thinking about your comments with regards petrodollar wealth. Surely the end place for that logic would suggest the invasion of Saudi Arabia, the over throw of the house of Saud and the nationalisation of the petrodollars, thereby cutting of the flow of funds. Obviously one or two other families in other nations would need to be invaded as well.
Naturally this won't happen, but would have a rational.

13 August 2014 at 09:23  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

Coming up to twenty-four hours and the list of signatures has grown to eight. Not yet a critical mass but it's looking more promising now than it was when IanCad checked at 08:35.

13 August 2014 at 09:51  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Rambling Steve @ 23:05

"What makes people think there is a good solution?"

Utopianism. Things will get better and better. But even Utopianism - in leaving God out of the picture - must still have at the back of its mind the law of entropy. Things come to an end.

Other generations before ours thought they were the last generation, and were wrong.

We may be wrong, too.

But one generation that thinks it's the last generation is going to be right. As you say, we have been told as much.

13 August 2014 at 09:58  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ IanCad (22:37)—We have the law and it should be used

I take it the above is your proposal for rekindling the light of liberty. Assuming that demographic changes proceed on their expected course and Britain is claimed for Islam, ‘We have the law and it should be used’ will become a Muslim cry, and I need hardly add that Islam has no regard for liberty. With all respect, your proposal requires elements of adjustment; how to prevent Muslims becoming the majority would be a good place to start.

13 August 2014 at 11:01  
Blogger JimS said...


You suggested that immigrants eventually adopt the culture of the host nation, I wondered how long that would take to happen in the US. Surely it is a question of numbers?
When I see schools in the UK that are 90+% Muslim, city wards that return Muslim councillors, £100k+ being spent on house adaptation for large families I can't see a time when these communities will disperse or adapt.
Rather, as has been suggested by others here, it is we who will adapt and our own laws will be used against us, rather as the Communist would declare a one-party state on winning a Democratic election.

13 August 2014 at 11:34  
Blogger bluedog said...

IanCad @ 22.37, notwithstanding your support for resettlement of Middle Eastern Christians, as JR implies above, if Britain ceases to be Christian, we have offered a short-term cure but no prevention.

You talk of Liberty. Since Muslim settlement became commonplace and since Muslim terrorist acts have followed, so many freedoms have been curtailed. Habeas Corpus is virtually extinct, a whole new code of anti-terrorist legislation is super-imposed on existing criminal law. Tried getting on a plane recently? Do you ever go anywhere without CCTV supervision? What is the budgetary cost of the massive expansion in the secret state needed to keep tabs on all these fine young Britons who travel to the Middle East on adventure holidays?

It's all bad news. No Muslims, that's good news.

13 August 2014 at 11:46  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

JimS: "When I see schools in the UK that are 90+% Muslim, city wards that return Muslim councillors, £100k+ being spent on house adaptation for large families I can't see a time when these communities will disperse or adapt."

Indian families disperse. Leicester is a well-known multi-ethnic city. The Indian population started in 2-bed terraced houses in Belgrave Gate, then reached the semi-detached and detached houses in Syston, then the classier parts of Birstall, and outwards. As they become wealthier, they aspire to better things. The Anglification is obvious across the generations too.

What needs to be done with our Pakistani population is to stop allowing the rural conservative Islamic culture to be constantly refreshed by immigration, I think. Also, this thing about their birth rate inevitably leading to a majority is false. I wave a hand at the statistics regularly, and occasionally publish links, which show that but it's an inconvenient truth it seems.

13 August 2014 at 11:56  
Blogger Shadrach said...

The last generation will not think that it is. Tis more likely they will be caught unawares.
It is written.

13 August 2014 at 12:58  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 August 2014 at 13:19  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

If Ecologists are right to warn of invasive species its because there is good reason to assume that they will predominate at the expense of native species in time.

Why the hell can't the same logic be applied to Islam?

13 August 2014 13:19

13 August 2014 at 13:20  
Blogger Nick said...

Looking at the news today, it seems the media is already losing interest in Iraq. There's more interest in an actor who chose to take his own life because of the role he was asked to play than in those whose lives are forcibly taken against their will.

symptomatic of the nations moral torpor

Meanwhile we see that George Galloway is getting away with hate-crime as he tries to spread his anti-Semitic views. He also tried to ban all Jews and all things Jewish from Bradford, with some support from a certain LibDem MP.

Looks like the "silly-season" is now all-year-round in Britain

13 August 2014 at 13:33  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Shadrach @ 12:58

Yes and no. We are simultaneously to forbidden to give a precise date, and told to watch for the signs of the end. Quite a balancing act.
In view of your name, I'd be interested in your take on 'Daniel' 12:4 - "Seal the book until the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased."

Cryptic though that is, I take it to mean that the book will be read and re-read through the ages, but its meaning will become clear only to those at the time of the end.

(Not dogmatic about this: I find 'Daniel' as difficult as 'Revelation'.)

13 August 2014 at 13:59  
Blogger The Explorer said...

DanJ0 @ 11:56

I agree that not bringing in rural brides is absolutely key.

The birth rate for them is significantly higher than for British-born Muslim women, and an upbringing abroad (probably without access to English) the biggest obstacle to successful assimilation.

That said, Hinduism is a much more eclectic religion than Islam, and so has a head start in terms of adapting to a British environment.

13 August 2014 at 14:07  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Their is a simple moral test on any subject, find out what George Galloway believes and then do the opposite, you can't go far wrong.

With regards the Islamic takeover, let's consider what is really possible. Mass repatriation won't happen. Designing laws to ensure a one child policy for Muslim immigrants won't happen. Even without the ECHR our courts would strike it down. The only realistic proposal is to stop the immigration as DanJo suggests. It should also be possible that jihadists who leave our shores are refused re- entry and those who do get back in are deported.
Any Government who acted in some of the ways proposed to a minority, simply based on their religious beliefs, however wrong, would be a Government that was a danger to all of us. Such a Government would have more in their sights then simply the removal of a single minority.

13 August 2014 at 14:10  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Clive @ 14:10

Where would they be deported to if they were born here?

Agree with everything else you say, but the deportation issue opens a real can of worms about citizenship.

13 August 2014 at 14:25  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


I admit it, a flaw in my argument!

I have read today that supporters of IS are leafleting Oxford to encourage fellow Muslims to move out to the new Caliphate. I suspect not many will go, but surely we can design laws so such behaviour ie supporting IS becomes a hate crime.

13 August 2014 at 14:34  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ DanJ0 (11:56)—this thing about their birth rate inevitably leading to a majority is false

If group A has a higher birth rate than group B, a majority is inevitable. I know you place great faith in the Muslim and indigenous birth rates converging but there is little sign of it happening. In the meantime, the table ‘Countries with the Largest Projected Percentage Increase in Number of Muslims, 2010-2030’ in this Pew report (halfway down the page) puts the UK increase at 94 per cent.

13 August 2014 at 14:42  
Blogger Nick said...


"I have read today that supporters of IS are leafleting Oxford to encourage fellow Muslims to move out to the new Caliphate."

That's potentially good news for Britain. We can cancel their British passports when they are out of the country, and, having them all in one place will require fewer munitions to grant them their wish for martyrdom. That's assuming you can be a martyr to satan.

13 August 2014 at 14:46  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Britify: verb. To make food unpalatable. (Carl Jacobs)

Actually, britification is an obscure technical term in food sciences for a process which neutralizes, usually through hours of boiling, all deleterious matter...typically all vitamins and nutrients, as well as flavor-producing organic chemicals..from foods usually, but not exclusively from vegetables. However, the remaining substance is, technically, nominally and legally palatable, primarily because the living organism ingesting it can not detect it to reject it. Especially when masked by several pints of beer, half a pack of Chesterfields and a vigorous, cardiovascular exercise such as a game of darts.

13 August 2014 at 14:49  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Clive at 09:23, that cat's out of the bag unfortunately, as nations scrambled to offer all possible goodies to the noble desert warriors in the early days of petroleum extraction. Taking crayon and set square to maps and, insanely enough, assigning actual borders to lands claimed by desert tribes, and then compounding the error by designating coastal pirates, highwaymen and goatherds with the most goats as "kings" further wrecked things for all.

13 August 2014 at 15:11  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

We might microwave or fry, but we no longer boil. Much to technical!

13 August 2014 at 15:11  
Blogger Len said...

Cameron still in no hurry to get back to work out some sort of rescue plan for thousands on the brink of being murdered?.
It is this sort of apathy or disinterest which must really encourage IS that no one will come to help those they are pursuing intent on murdering.
This reminds me of the time when Diana was killed in France and any sort of official announcement was a long time in coming.Cameron`s reticence in making any sort of move to help those on the mountain in Iraq may came back to haunt him in times to come.

13 August 2014 at 15:52  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

On the BBC

"Britain will "play a role" in an international mission to rescue stranded Yazidi refugees in Iraq, Prime Minister David Cameron has said. "

Maybe things are beginning to happen.

13 August 2014 at 17:42  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

DanJ0 at 11:56

Muslims are in the cities and in the cities they are going to stay. They may have started in the middle of cities, but they will expand outwards, as they are doing. The day will come when at least the central square mile or three of most cities will be almost exclusively muslim. One can safely prophesise that non-muslims in these future ghettos will be left in no doubt that their dwellings would be ideal for the Allah’s expanding population. How this is going to go down with Britons of negro ancestry (those who haven’t converted to Islam when in prison, that is) who laid claim to the same inner city environ a couple of decades before the muslims arrived is anybody’s guess. Race riots is this man’s forecast. That will put our social engineers in a tizz. Race riots happening in England, and not a white man in sight to blame, though one thinks those cultural Marxist blighters will have a damn good go to pin them on whitey anyway in some devious fashion..

Now, back to the Leicester Asians. You do realise that these people were the commercial cream of Uganda at one time. Traders, entrepreneurs and the professions. They were bound to succeed in the UK too and be able to move out into the suburbs as a result. It’s not going to happen with the Mohameds. They were brought over ostensibly as factory fodder when we had factories for them to work in. We largely don’t now, not for unskilled labour who can’t read or write English. One doubts if many of the older muslim males actually have any form of gainful employment. Their wives and daughters don’t work in the main we know, and the sons, if employed, seemed to be exclusively involved as taxi drivers or fast food outlet workers. Minimum wage stuff or lower.

So, how can they disperse ? Even if they did want to leave the comfort and security of their own culture established in the city and move to where the wicked infidel they hear so much about in the mosque would be in the majority. How can they afford to effect a move when their incomes are so low or comprised of benefit payments, though with the latter, one would not be surprised if substantial family fortunes have been accumulated by prudence with this money, invested in gold and thus be out of sight of the benefit investigators.

Also, about the benefits of mass alien immigration to this country. It’s pretty damn obvious by now if they worship Allah, there are none. In fact, quite literally, the bloody opposite…

13 August 2014 at 18:20  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


I read last night that the former President of France said that the only thing Britain ever contributed to European cuisine was Mad Cow Disease. Ouch! Even allowing for traditional French resentment against its more successful Anglo Saxon relatives ... still. Ouch!


13 August 2014 at 18:45  
Blogger The Explorer said...


As one who has lived in both France and the UK:

Stilton*, cheddar*, scones, crumpets, English muffins*, blackcurrant tart, haggis (the French have a point), Welsh Rarebit, Newcastle Brown Ale, cottage loaf, Scottish pancakes, flapjacks.

* are even available in big French supermarkets.

The French still haven't got over Agincourt, never mind Trafalgar or Waterloo.

13 August 2014 at 18:58  
Blogger Len said...

"Britain will "play a role"
Lets hope they can come to a decision to halt these ISIS conveys intent on genocide sooner rather than later.

I know nothing about military matters but I would have thought the best time to hit terrorist convoys is when they are moving on the road?.

13 August 2014 at 19:02  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Ouch, indeed, Carl, didn't know the Frogules had it in them to crack a good one once in a century. I note that our Limey colleagues are very stoic about our frank discourse on their cookery, as it were. Not a peep from the usually bellicose suspects, except for a dry, self-effacing quip from Clive. Should we worry? Or are they merely busy assembling meal packages for ISIS, as Britain's diabolically clever contribution to the campaign against them?

13 August 2014 at 19:05  
Blogger Len said...

This is becoming somewhat like the 'mad hatters tea party' here, muffins and crumpets totally surreal.

God knows what any casual observer might think?.

13 August 2014 at 19:06  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Len @ 19:06

Ever seen 'Escape from Sobibor'?

A new arrival objects to jokes made in a death camp.

The reply is interesting.

If you have seen the film you will know the response. If you don't know the film, I recommend it.

13 August 2014 at 19:11  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Ok now you have brought in the French I cannot but defend my countries cooking. Honour demands nothing less. Our coking is fresh, varied, innovative and international. It is self confident and outward looking. Bit like us the British. French cooking is over seasoned, over sauced, lacking in innovation, inward looking, self satisfied and parochial, just like the French. We have brought to the world Chicken Tikka masala, our North American cousins? Macdonalds !

13 August 2014 at 19:18  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Clive @ 19:18

Don't forget the hot dog!

13 August 2014 at 19:19  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Besides Chirac was/is a crook!

13 August 2014 at 19:19  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Went into a MacDonald's years ago. Told I could get a cup of there.

Bloody awful place, bloody awful food, and, unforgivably in England, bloody awful tea...

13 August 2014 at 19:48  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


It's because they don't serve it in a pre warmed tea pot. Americans! Tsk.

13 August 2014 at 20:19  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Cooking? Cuisine?? Why, thanks to Mrs Beeton we have given the world suet pudding, just the sort of ballast an honest yeoman grenadier needs inside him as he faces the fuzzy-wuzzies...Mr. Slope has a passion for spotted dick...but that comes as no surprise

13 August 2014 at 20:29  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 August 2014 at 20:29  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

The Inspector has rather high standards Clive. Only the finest Darjeeling will do.

Mrs Proudie. This fellow Slope. He’s not far Eastern is he with a name too awkward to pronounce in our tongue ?

13 August 2014 at 20:51  
Blogger bluedog said...

Still no sign of Bishops Alan and Pete, Your Grace, on your list of episcopal supporters of aid to persecuted Christians.

Perhaps the Right Reverend gentlemen are struggling to reprogramme their consciences. Making the shift from 'Gaza Palestinian Outrage' mode to 'Iraqi Christian Islamic State Slaughter' cannot be easy.

One somehow doubts the BDS manual of operations provides appropriate guidance.

13 August 2014 at 21:30  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Johnny:"I know you place great faith in the Muslim and indigenous birth rates converging but there is little sign of it happening."

There is every sign it is happening for UK-born women, but immigration brings in more foreign born ones. It's a pity the statistics aren't routinely collected for ethnicity, just country of birth for the mother. Hence, the numbers have to be unpicked a bit.

13 August 2014 at 21:33  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

The birth rate for Polish-born women is interesting ... but you really need to talk to Polish people to understand why.

13 August 2014 at 21:36  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

HJ wrote

>>>>They murder for pleasure - not for *Allah*.<<<

worthy of reflection.

What's the difference? And what is it about Allah that inspires a pleasure for murder?

Maybe this will all die down and it will be business as usual. But maybe on the other hand 'we are now commencing our final descent'.

Either way, I'm thankful I don't have grandchildren and am increasingly thinking about how to make a good martyrdom. One of the issues I addressed in my Kindle novel 'Darwin's Adders: A Chronicle of Pagan England 2089.'

13 August 2014 at 21:55  
Blogger The Explorer said...

bluedog @ 21:30

Look again at the list.

13 August 2014 at 22:13  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

13 August 2014 at 22:15  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Rambling Steve

HJ wrote: "They murder for pleasure - not for *Allah*."

RS wrote: worthy of reflection.

What's the difference? And what is it about Allah that inspires a pleasure for murder?"

Is it just Allah? Hasn't it always been thus that men kill in the name of God or some worthy cause - and some enjoy it? Amongst the Crusaders and amongst Oliver's Army? Amongst soldiers during wars? Men driven by evil in their hearts and bloodlust waiting an opportunity?

Jack also had in mind this quote:

"If only there were evil people somewhere insidiously commiting evil deeds and it were necessary only to separate them from the rest of us and destroy them. But the dividing line between good and evil cuts through the heart of every human being, and who is willing to destroy his own heart?"
Alexandre Solzhenitsyn. 'The Gulag Archipelago')

And yet evil men do congregate when suitable opportunities present. Is any faith or belief system immune? When they do and threaten others, they have to be crushed.

13 August 2014 at 22:37  
Blogger Roy said...

Clive Mitchell said...

I have read today that supporters of IS are leafleting Oxford to encourage fellow Muslims to move out to the new Caliphate. I suspect not many will go, but surely we can design laws so such behaviour ie supporting IS becomes a hate crime.

Supporting ISIS with words is not a "hate crime"; it is sedition. Supporting ISIS with actions is not a hate crime; it is treason.

Therefore ISIS supporters in this country ought to be put on trial for sedition or for treason, depending exactly on what they have done.

13 August 2014 at 23:20  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Clive M

Have no fear - Scotland Yard is investigating whether the men were breaking terror laws.

Sedition was dispensed with back in early 2010.

At the time, Justice Minister Claire Ward said: "Sedition and seditious and defamatory libel are arcane offences - from a bygone era when freedom of expression wasn't seen as the right it is today.

"Freedom of speech is now seen as the touchstone of democracy, and the ability of individuals to criticise the state is crucial to maintaining freedom.

"The existence of these obsolete offences in this country had been used by other countries as justification for the retention of similar laws which have been actively used to suppress political dissent and restrict press freedom."

The old offence of sedition prevented an attack on the sovereign or institutions of government - included encouraging disaffection against the institutions of government with an intention to incite violence or create public disorder.

As for treason, forget it! Not used since Lord Haw Haw. In 2001, following 9/11, the British government threatened British citizens who fought for the Taliban army in Afghanistan against Anglo-American troops with prosecution for treason. No one was ever tried. In 2005, the UK Government AGAIN considered prosecutions for treason against British Islamic clerics who had publicly spoken positively about acts of terrorism against civilians in Britain, or attacks on British soldiers abroad. No prosecutions ever came about.

13 August 2014 at 23:58  
Blogger bluedog said...

Noted, Mr Explorer @ 22.13, and congratulations to Bishop Pete for taking a stand.

14 August 2014 at 00:00  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ DanJ0 (21:33)—The NHS does collect ethnicity data. At least, it did in 2010.

14 August 2014 at 00:25  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


The hot dog is a great American invention, which is why it is associated with Baseball - another great American invention. You will notice that Baseball will never be mistaken for a sudden outbreak of mass catatonia - which I understand is a frequent occurrence on a Cricket pitch.

"Breaking News in Sports from the Test Match between Leeds and Reading. Something was observed to happen. Let's go live to our on-the-scene reporter.

Yes, Bob, we definitely saw a fielder move, but there is as of yet no explanation for the unusual phenomenon. We'll keep monitoring the situation."


14 August 2014 at 04:32  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

The persecution of Christians and Non-Muslims is the symptom and not the cause. Where is the organised Christian demonstration outside Parliament?

Until that cause is honestly and objectively recognised, atrocities will continue; we will become less shockable,it will cease to be deemed easily newsworthy and the 'Palestinian Cause' will still be all that the collective mindset will see. Until that is, the returning arrogant Jihad Junkies reach critical mass in the West and do something a little closer to home.

14 August 2014 at 08:04  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Dreadnaught @ 08:04

Fair point, but note that IS are not just attacking Christians and non-Muslims.

IS are radical Sunnis who have also attacked Shia Muslims and will probably turn, in due course, on Sunnis less fervent than themselves.

14 August 2014 at 08:37  
Blogger Len said...

The Explorer 13 August 2014 19:11.

'Ever seen 'Escape from Sobibor'.

No I have no intention of watching it either.Don`t do films (which I assume it is?.)

Perhaps a little illustration might help?.I remember watching a a play on TV a long time ago where people were having a dinner party the TV was on in the room where the party was happening.On the TV a girl was screaming because she was covered in napalm a man was walking long with his captors when the captor casually turned to the man and executed him (these were real images) But the dinner party went on with no one seeming noticing what was happening on the TV.
Perhaps the images were too bad to take in so they were being ignored as were the death camps in Poland and elsewhere.The West having contributed to the horrors going on in Iraq and elsewhere are now too afraid to look at them .
By all means carry on with your dinner party if that helps you but don`t expect me to join you.

14 August 2014 at 08:39  
Blogger The Explorer said...


The thread had moved back to topic after its brief diversion, until you revived the food issue.

14 August 2014 at 08:48  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


"IS are radical Sunnis who have also attacked Shia Muslims and will probably turn, in due course, on Sunnis less fervent than themselves."

There must be real risk of this sectarian violance breaking out here. Indeed i am surprised it hasn't happened already.

14 August 2014 at 09:13  
Blogger IanCad said...

Johnny R, Jim S, bluedog @ around elevenish yesterday.

Had to drop out. Fine day. Work beckoned.

In order:

JR. We're not far apart here. We need to breed. If only our young ladies' evident enthusiasm for copulation could be equated with population we'd be home and dry.

JS.I do not think that we will adapt. Bend? Yes. Sometimes it is easier to sway. but there is limit to what the mass of British up with which they will not put.
Chesterton has the measure:
"Smile at us, pay us, pass us; but do not quite forget;
For we are the people of England, that never have spoken yet.--"

bd. Talk of liberty. Nothing to talk about. It has gone. A fearful and docile public has demanded thus. A generation of politicians imbued with the creeds of equality and diversity have risen to bind us and assure us that safety is better than liberty.

14 August 2014 at 09:21  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Islamic State is above all else a Tyranny. It has no limits to its atrocious violence until it implodes and that won't be any time soon while politicians sit on their hands.

Its worth remembering that the option for Turkey to join the EU is still on the table which brings the whole reality of the issue to the EU's backdoor - our backdoor.

14 August 2014 at 09:25  
Blogger Roy said...

Happy Jack said:

As for treason, forget it! Not used since Lord Haw Haw. In 2001, following 9/11, the British government threatened British citizens who fought for the Taliban army in Afghanistan against Anglo-American troops with prosecution for treason. No one was ever tried. In 2005, the UK Government AGAIN considered prosecutions for treason against British Islamic clerics who had publicly spoken positively about acts of terrorism against civilians in Britain, or attacks on British soldiers abroad. No prosecutions ever came about.

In other words under politically correct governments laws against treason are as useful as laws against female genital mutilation. It looks good to have such laws on the statute book but it would be "discriminatory" to actually apply them.

14 August 2014 at 09:36  
Blogger Roy said...

Further to my remarks on treason a short while ago, British politicians might have a nefarious for wanting the law of treason to fall into abeyance.

Andrew Neather, a former government adviser and speech writer for Tony Blair, Jack Straw and David Blunkett, said the aim of Labour’s immigration strategy was to "rub the Right’s nose in diversity and render their arguments out of date". He also helped to write the 2000 report which outlined a strategy to "open up the UK to mass migration".
The document was not published in its original format over fears of an adverse public reaction. Instead it was released a year later as a research document on the economic benefits of migration.


Furthermore Lord Mandelson has admitted that Labour plotted to change the character of the country.

Labour 'sent out search parties for immigrants', Lord Mandelson admits


If the Labour government had been given a clear electoral mandate for their immigration policy it would have been legitimate, even though still misguided. However Labour had no such mandate and they knew perfectly well that most people would have opposed their policy had the Labour Party possessed the integrity to make their intentions clear.

How can a plot to irreversibly change the character of the country without the consent of the British people be anything other than an act of treachery?

All members of Tony Blair's cabinet are guilty of treason. The Tories are probably quite happy to let Labour leaders get off because that means that they do not have to worry about the national interest either.

14 August 2014 at 10:11  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Jack, you are following Clifford Longley's 'what about the Inquisition?' line.

Yes we are all evil but even Dreadnaught who dislikes all theistic religions can see that Islam poses a unique threat.

This won't go away. The present state of global jihadism requires a complete paradigm shift if we think western liberal civilisation is worth preserving.

Reading Roberts Spencer'd 'Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades' would be a good start.

14 August 2014 at 10:56  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Rambling Steve

Jack was making two distinct but interrelated points.

First, "The atrocities in Iraq and Syria is not just about Islam. It is a particular malignant variant. What we are witnessing has unique qualities ...

This Islamic State has recruited men from around the world with an aggressive interpretation of Islam. They are consumed with hatred and commit murder then rejoice and publicise every barbaric act. ISIS are attracting evil men from across the world to their cause. They murder for pleasure - not for *Allah*."

Second, "Hasn't it always been thus that men kill in the name of God or some worthy cause - and some enjoy it? ... Men driven by evil in their hearts and bloodlust waiting an opportunity?"

Now you could argue that such is the evil inherent in Islam that it will inevitably turn men to violence because that is its very nature. Alternatively, one could argue that fundamentalist interpretations of any worldview attract evil men intent on violence.

14 August 2014 at 11:19  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ @ 11:19

I'd say both statements in your final paragraph are true.

But when evil men are attracted to Islam... that's a double whammy.

14 August 2014 at 11:46  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

...an aggressive interpretation of Islam...

But it is not an 'interpretation' its a whole bloody set direct instructions to 'legitimise' murder. The Koran contains at least 109 verses that call Muslims to war with nonbelievers for the sake of Islamic rule. Some are quite graphic, with commands to chop off heads and fingers and kill infidels wherever they may be hiding. Muslims who do not join the fight are called 'hypocrites' and warned that Allah will send them to Hell if they do not join the slaughter.

Christianity's weakness and its creeping demise is founded in its 21st Century acceptance of Islam as a 'legitimate' religion; deserving of the respect, status and privilege it claims for itself, but deliberately ignoring the obscenity of its reality and ambition.

14 August 2014 at 11:52  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


If is Islam is inherently evil, and presumably incapable of reform, it will inevitably foster evil wherever it is and attract evil men. Should it be repressed in the West - and how? Or should we hope it dies a more natural death?


Then why are we about to arm the Kurds and inevitably encourage an independent state of Kurdistan?

The majority of Kurds are Sunni Muslim with a minority being Shia. This is to say nothing of their non-Muslim minorities - the Alevis, Yarsan, Yezidis and Zoroastrians.

14 August 2014 at 12:16  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

Rambling Steve

"PS Mr Deane: I have written to my MP and MEP asking for asylum to be given to at least several thousand exiled Mosul Christians and sent a substantial cash donation to Open Doors (an established charity working with persecuted Christians). Because of my faith which commands charity."

Commendable. I have not written to my MP but gave a donation to the charity mentioned by YG in an article he posted a couple weeks back. Because it was the right thing to do.

I'm sure the difference in rationale for both of us won't be lost on the people of this forum. And whilst most people on here likely share your rationale, I hope some view it with the pity it deserves.

14 August 2014 at 12:18  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

Worrying concerns have been articulated about the safety, security, and impregnability-or rather not- of the Mosul dam. Seems it was built on silt and needs frequent undergirding injections of
a largely concrete specific mix to stay intact, but those with the know how had to flee to safety as ISIS advanced. Our prayers are certainly needed.

I fear that Bishops with children will largely be on holiday so we do not have by any means a full field in place to encourage to sign up.

14 August 2014 at 12:30  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

14 August 2014 at 12:34  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dreadnaught: "Christianity's weakness and its creeping demise is founded in its 21st Century acceptance of Islam as a 'legitimate' religion; deserving of the respect, status and privilege it claims for itself, but deliberately ignoring the obscenity of its reality and ambition."

It is a legitimate religion as it ticks all the boxes and it has age and tradition behind it, which seems to matter to lots of people. However, just because it's a legitimate religion doesn't mean that we must accept behaviour that follows from it, that's just what religionist of all flavours want other people to think. No, we judge what behaviour is acceptable or not by other criteria.

14 August 2014 at 12:35  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Dreadnaught gets it.

Thr Quran mandates perpetual sttuggle by all mean including emigration, subversion and conquest until the whole world submits to Islam. Its not cryptic.

What to do? Robert Spenser has some useful suggestions in his book. The fact that he is banned from entering the UK by our dhimmi government says a lot

There is nothing we can do until we acknowledge Islam for what it is. As our noble Crusader ancestors did. They weren't perfect but if they hadn't stepped up to the plate when necessary you'd be speaking Arabic.

14 August 2014 at 12:38  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ @ 12:16

It won't be repressed (suppressed, if there's a difference?) in the West because it's now a significant voting block. The only possibility is containment: cut off the supply of brides from Bangladesh, as DanJ0 suggests.

As for the religion itself, I'm feeling my way here; but there seem to be different interpretations within Islam (Kurds, Sufis as cases in point), just as within Christianity.

A thousand-year millennium is there in black and white, but I - as an amillennialist - don't take it literally; although premillennialists do. In the same way, I assume some Muslims faced with the injunction to smite unbelievers on the neck etc, treat such passages figuratively. Otherwise we'd already be in a permanent state of civil war in Britain.

I assume that all Muslims believe the world should be under the sway of Islam, but not necessarily via jihad of the sword.

That said, there still seems something in Islam - however dephysicalised - more violent than in any other religion. |It's to other religions as Ishmael was to other humans.)

14 August 2014 at 12:45  
Blogger bluedog said...

RSA @ 10.11 says, 'All members of Tony Blair's cabinet are guilty of treason. The Tories are probably quite happy to let Labour leaders get off because that means that they do not have to worry about the national interest either.'

Regarding Blair, absolutely right. The inner circle including TB were shamelessly treasonous and should be guillotined in the finest EU/Continental tradition.

But surely, the Conservatives are reluctant to act in this regard because to do so sets off an endless cycle of impeachment with each change of government. Inaction also spares one the nauseous tedium of watching the Lib-Dims make pleas for clemency because they 'didn't mean it really and everyone knows that'.

14 August 2014 at 13:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Explorer: " In the same way, I assume some Muslims faced with the injunction to smite unbelievers on the neck etc, treat such passages figuratively. Otherwise we'd already be in a permanent state of civil war in Britain."

I'd occasionally hear on the Big Questions a moderate Muslim talk about the position of women etc with one of the outlier Muslims on the show, and they seemed to qualify their comments with a distinction between living as a Muslim in somewhere like the UK and living as a Muslim under Sharia in a perfect Muslim state. It has the feeling of that ' the law of the land is the law' thing to which diaspora Jewish people hold. Naturally, someone like me would wonder what would happen when a moderate Muslim ends up living in a proper Sharia state. But perhaps moderate Muslims think one of those things is very unlikely in the real world, and therefore something not worth bothering about in day to day life?

14 August 2014 at 13:08  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

If the Mosul dam were to go a 65 ft wave would, I understand, obliterate Mosul, and flood large portions of Baghdad, so let's hope and pray that commonsense & humanity - somehow - anyhow - prevail.

14 August 2014 at 13:21  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


Then why are we about to arm the Kurds and inevitably encourage an independent state of Kurdistan?

Why ask me?

1.Who is this WE? You mean the Roman Catholics? Now that would be a nice gesture - after all they have plenty of cash.

2.That would be a bad thing would it? - bit like Israel or Assad's Syria then, where Christians are not oppressed.

I made a personal comment and you, true to your duplicitous traits,
attempt restructure it to suit your own tired agenda of papist pin-head dancing. I note however that you and presumably the branch of Christianity for whom you speak, are seeminly not that bothered about the global, let alone any combined Christian lack of cohesive response then? - How unsurprising.

Now when Dawkins tweets 'Haven't read Koran so couldn't quote chapter & verse like I can for Bible. But often say Islam greatest force for evil today' and condemns Islam as the God Squad should - they leap around in a frenzy condemning him for attacking 'religion' enmasse.

In case the point I am labouring has not penetrated; it's the ideology not any specific country you idiot.

14 August 2014 at 13:32  
Blogger The Explorer said...

DanJ0 @ 13:08

I'm sure there are genuinely-moderate Muslims in Britain: ie cultural Muslims willing to live in harmony with their white neighbours, and not secret fanatics just waiting for the right social circumstances to declare themselves. There were Muslim signatures in the petition against the Tobligi Jamaat mosque at the Olympic Centre.

There are moderate Muslims even in sharia-run societies: that they will be the next target for IS once it has run out of Christians or Shia to kill is a case in point. Peter Hitchens records about a visit to Iran just how decent a lot of the ordinary people were.

Christians have done cruel and foolish things in the past, but you can't get sanction for murdering your unbelieving neighbour from a literal reading of the NT.

With the Koran, you can. It's there in the text, unless you spiritualise it. That's the difference; and that's the problem.

14 August 2014 at 13:40  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Explorer, I agree with all of that. I'm heartily fed up with reading about conflicts and atrocities and crimes against humanity perpetuated in the name of Islam. Clearly, there is something in Islam that lends itself very well to aggression and violence if people are so inclined. That many Muslims aren't is to our good fortune that basic human nature often overrides the power of religion.

14 August 2014 at 13:47  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


cultural Muslims willing to live in harmony with their white neighbours...

You're racialising religion? - how very odd, especially for a Christian of all things.

Any way, Supposing all conquering Islam hit these shores running so to speak - no prize for guessing who would be the first group of Brits to fall in line and turn on their 'white' neighbors (can Jews be white?) or anyone else not a Muslim. Can't forsee any Muslim Schindlers or Wallenbergs either.

14 August 2014 at 13:56  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Here’s a thoughtful article you might find interesting.

It offers a different perspective on Islam in Western culture than the more common one and suggests a way forward.

Worth a read.

14 August 2014 at 14:49  
Blogger IanCad said...

Dreadnaught just wrote:

" Can't forsee any Muslim Schindlers or Wallenbergs either."

Well, as I understand, Yad Vashem honours several Muslims as Righteous Among the Nations.

Nearly all the Albanian Jews survived the Holocaust. In fact Jewish survival rates in those dreadful Muslim countries far exceeded that of those in the occupied and merciful Christian lands.

14 August 2014 at 15:06  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ The Explorer (13:40)—Christians have done cruel and foolish things in the past

Would that Christian cruelty and foolishness were indeed things of the past. Dreadnaught observes at 11:52 that Western Christianity has accepted Islam as an Abrahamic faith on a par with itself while ‘ignoring the obscenity of its reality and ambition’. The embrace of a declared, historic enemy is an unparalleled act of Christian foolishness, the cruel consequences of which are only just beginning to be seen. Christianity has turned Hamlet’s ‘I must be cruel only to be kind’ on its head.

14 August 2014 at 15:16  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Dreadnaught @ 13:56

How many white Muslims do you know, and are there enough of them to constitute a significant social group? However, I'm more than happy to rephrase: their infidel, non-Muslim, khuffar neighbours. Take your pick.

I'm not sure the group I was describing would be the first to turn on their neighbours:

a) because I don't believe they would

b) because even if they wanted to they would be beaten to it by those who have declared their hand already. The London bombing, attempted July 2007 bombing, Drummer Rigby murdering types currently jihadying with the IS.

14 August 2014 at 15:39  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Johnny R @ 15:16

The unbelieving part of Western Christianity has accepted Islam on a par with itself. The believing part has not: if it did, it would cease to be Christianity.

14 August 2014 at 15:42  
Blogger Time For Tea said...

If we're living in the Millennial Kingdom now, someone needs to tell Jesus Christ that Satan's chain is too long!

14 August 2014 at 15:45  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


Thanks for the link to the article, it was very interesting, particularly the bit referring to the Koran. What is says to me is:

1. There is less common ground then I had expected.
2. Therefore dialogue will be less fruitful then you would hope.
3. That because of the way that the koran is presented, Islam will find it harder to adapt and develop to changing circumstances (which may partly explain why as a faith it always seems to look back and not to the future).

Because of this it also says that the failure of these societies is hard wired into Islams DNA. I think it also says that Islam itself has this flaw, which will ultimately lead to its own defeat.

14 August 2014 at 15:47  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

How many white Muslims do you know

Not knowing them personally:
Yvonne Ridley
Lauren Booth
Cat Stevens
George Galloway (even if he won't admit it and the fact he's married two of them)

Aisha is one of a growing number of white converts according to a new study by Swansea University for the charity Faith Matters.

Using a number of sources, including a survey of more than 250 British mosques, census data from 2001 and conversion figures in Europe, the researchers estimate that there could be as many as 100,000 converts - of all ethnic backgrounds - in the UK. This represents an increase on an estimated 60,000 converts in 2001.

14 August 2014 at 15:56  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Dreadnaught @ 15:56

I make that about 0.0017% of the British population (existing Muslims excluded. By my reckoning, that's not yet a significant social group; although I take your point about the rate of increase.

14 August 2014 at 16:15  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Clive M

Jack wouldn't disagree with your interpretation of the flaws the article identifies in Islam. It's views about Islam in Western secular societies were interesting. However, it notes possible strengths in Islam (which some will fervently disagree with) and a nuanced approach to relations between cultures that might avoid two different civilisations having a violent clash (which some see as inevitable).

Jack is still musing on it.

14 August 2014 at 16:18  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ @ 14:49

Thanks for the link. Thoughtful article.

There is no orthodoxy. To deal with Islam is to deal with groups.

An important point. Under-appreciated, I think in the West: which tends to see Islam as monolithic.

14 August 2014 at 16:18  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Ever wondered why people in the West appear to feel the need in to convert to Islam? In other parts of the world the direction of travel appears to be different.

14 August 2014 at 16:21  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

By my reckoning, that's not yet a significant social group

Come off it; IS is about 5000? or so it is said and they've got half of Iraq and the entire middle-east scared shitless.

14 August 2014 at 16:22  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


1. No.
2. Where?

14 August 2014 at 16:25  
Blogger The Explorer said...


When the British converts to Islam have IS's firepower I'll be scared too.

14 August 2014 at 16:30  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


There is no orthodoxy. To deal with Islam is to deal with groups.
Under-appreciated, I think in the West: which tends to see Islam as monolithic.

Al Quaida
Boko Haram
Islamic State
Muslim Brotherhood
Jamaat Islami
Al Mujharoon
Al Aqsa Brigade...

Its endless, but You know what? - they all read the same fucking book!

14 August 2014 at 16:38  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Dreadnaught : 16:38

Quite true. And that list all read it in the same literal way.

A real problem with Islamic reform is that those who don't read the sacred book literally tend to be killed by those who do. Stick you neck out, and there are lots of blades ready to sever it.

14 August 2014 at 16:50  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


When the British converts to Islam have IS's firepower I'll be scared too.

I see you're only referring to the converts? Now that really hedging your bet isn't it.

Duck the stupidity of your statements if you wish. 550+ Muslim British passport holders will one day come home if they survive, arriving tails up and looking for a little home action. Isn't that enough to make you at least a wary if not indeed just a little bit scared of which Muslims you cuddle up to; you old BraveHeart.

14 August 2014 at 16:50  
Blogger The Explorer said...


We're losing sequence here. I said the converts were not a large percentage. You said 5000 were enough to be dangerous, and I agreed that the converts would be dangerous with IS firepower.

I had already said there were dangerous Muslims in Britain: London bombings, 2007 attempted bombings, death of Rigby, current IS jihadi activity.

That's completely different from whether ALL Muslims are dangerous.

In the Mau Mau uprising, a female doctor who had committed herself to solely Kikuyu patients, and who refused to keep a gun in the house, was turned on by the servants and killed. The same servants skewered the family dog, alive, on the spikes of the gate.

But other servants didn't behave like that. So yeas and no that they were the first to turn.

(And no, I'm not saying Muslims should be servants, but it's the closest equivalent to your proposed scenario of a while backthat I can think of).

14 August 2014 at 17:14  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


"nuanced approach to relations between cultures that might avoid two different civilisations having a violent clash "

On this issue I felt it was over optimistic. In any grouping their are hotheads and those who wish to exploit them. Islam gives to many justifications for these hotheads to engage in violence, it is one of its many fundamental flaws.
I hope I am wrong.

14 August 2014 at 17:17  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ @ 16:21

Why people in the West turn to Islam. Interesting question.

Lee Rigby's murderer apparently turned to Islam partly because he found Christianity a wuss religion. In the form he encountered it, it probably was.

Cat Stevens, if I recall, found Islam gave him a clarity that Christianity didn't. (Makes sense if he encountered Christianity in one of its woolly manifestations.)

I read a surprising article about four American women who had converted to Islam.

One found its simplicity gave her life a focus.

The youngest came from such a dysfunctional family that she had been inspired by the stability of her Muslim neighbours.

The other two - if you can believe it - felt that Islam gave them a new dignity as women. Not viewed simply as sex objects. (They must have been moving in rarified Islamic circles.)

What was being rejected by all four, though, was not Christianity (none of them mentioned it) but the Western way of life.

14 August 2014 at 17:27  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


A"wuss" religion. In what way did he mean it? Not violent enough or just a little 'nice'?

14 August 2014 at 17:57  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Clive @ 17:57

Pass. I just remember it as one of the reasons why he had rejected the Christianity of his upbringing in favour of Islam.

I let my imagination do the rest.

14 August 2014 at 18:10  
Blogger Happy Jack said...



Then maybe you should think about it.

Here's an insight from the article Jack posted a link to earlier:

“ ... the Koran is a total religious law, which regulates the whole of political and social life and insists that the whole order of life be Islamic. Shari’a shapes society from beginning to end. In this sense, it can exploit such freedoms as our constitutions give, but it cannot be its final goal to say: Yes, now we too are a body with rights, now we are present [in society] just like the Catholics and the Protestants. In such a situation, [Islam] would not achieve a status consistent with its inner nature; it would be in alienation from itself ...

This alienation could be resolved only through the total Islamization of society. When for example an Islamic finds himself in a Western society, he can benefit from or exploit certain elements, but he can never identify himself with the non-Muslim citizen, because he does not find himself in a Muslim society."

Assimilation into Western culture then is not possible and Muslims will feel a sense of alienation. The question is can we find a way to live peaceably together?

Here's one perspective from the article:

“ ... what offends Muslims and the faithful of other religions is not talking about God or our Christian roots, but rather the disdain for God and the sacred, that separates us from other cultures and does not create the opportunity for encounter, but expresses the arrogance of diminished, reduced reason, which provokes fundamentalist reactions.”

Our distain for God provokes fundamentalism. In the West everything is relativized. There is no sense or respect for the sacred. Muslims are offended by our secularised culture and behaviours, by the dismissal of God and the absence of what they and other people of faith see as real values.

A secular culture that has turned its back on God has no basis for building bridges or conversing with Islam because there is no respect for true human rights which start from the position we are all made in God's image and share the same attributes.

You and other atheists - or the more sceptical Christians - will say: "tough shit; that's the way it is; put up, shut up or move on."

With 1.2 billion Muslims in the world that isn't going to happen and with demographics heading the way they are in Europe, something is going to have to give.

14 August 2014 at 19:17  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


For Pope Benedict a way forward is cultural rather than religious dialogue.

"There is plenty of scope for us to act together in the service of fundamental moral values. The dignity of the person and the defence of the rights which that dignity confers must represent the goal of every social endeavour and of every effort to bring it to fruition ...

“This message is conveyed to us unmistakably by the quiet but clear voice of conscience. Only through recognition of the centrality of the person can a common basis for understanding be found, one which enables us to move beyond cultural conflicts and which neutralises the disruptive power of ideologies.”

Here's the big "if"

“If together we can succeed in eliminating from hearts any trace of rancour, in resisting every form of intolerance and in opposing every manifestation of violence, we will turn back the wave of cruel fanaticism that endangers the lives of so many people and hinders progress towards world peace. The task is difficult but not impossible and the believer can accomplish this.”

It's a different approach to the more adversarial one advocated by Robert Spenser and others who preache that Islam is "inherently terroristic" and "traditional Islam contains violent and supremacist elements", and "its various schools unanimously teach warfare against and the subjugation of unbelievers."

Worth a try?

14 August 2014 at 19:18  
Blogger Len said...

Try indeed H J but it is a futile exercise.
The only solution to the evil in mankind is the one God offers which is a total transformation through the new Birth.
The problem within mankind is spiritual, the root of evil is spiritual.

14 August 2014 at 19:39  
Blogger Len said...

We are living in a period of God`s Grace He has offered us the solution to the evils of Humanity which is the new life the new heart the new nature through Christ.

So we are either IN the old corrupt fallen creation or IN the New creation in Christ Jesus.
The old creation stands condemned we cannot improve it (if God cannot then how can we?)
We cannot improve modify or retrain the old fallen nature we take it to the Cross and execute it...And then go onto new life in Christ...
Nothing in the old creation will be transferred into the new.
Its only a matter of time....

14 August 2014 at 19:46  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Yes but meantime life goes on and we have to continue affirming it and God and dong whatever we can.

So chin up -no good just giving up and doing a Jeremiah, now is it?

14 August 2014 at 20:46  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Jack meant "doing".

14 August 2014 at 20:49  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


A secular culture that has turned its back on God has no basis for building bridges...

So are you saying that your god is the same as the god of Islam?

1.2 billion Muslims out of 7 billion people makes it a minority: 2.5 million in a population of 65 million makes it an even smaller minority in the UK.

Islam makes 'building bridges' only in as far as it will lead them to succeed in taking root. The Pope's words are exactly what the Islamists would applaud, in that they make their job easier by stupefying Christians into believing that sanctimony will justify inaction.

Islam is a corruption, born and promulgated on the violence of its alleged founder who according to them trumps all other religions - what do you not get?

It may make you feel better and holier than Thou that you can tap into Islams fluffy side, you would be deluding yourself: there isn't one. Turning the other cheek is not an option either; that wont re-attach head on the shoulders of dead Christians, Jews, Muslims of the wrong kind and sundry infidels.

The answer to Creeping or Blitzkrieging Islamism will have to be unpleasant, decisive and sooner rather later.

14 August 2014 at 21:01  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack. You’re clearly drunk man !

You can’t get ‘Le’s name right, as well as having problems with mere English.

Desist immediately, and sleep it off, before you make a bigger fool of yourself then you are already doing...

(It’s true what they say, revenge, when enacted over a period of time when all is apparently forgotten, is the sweetest dish of all...)

Sweet dreams, you rotter...

14 August 2014 at 21:06  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

"...after a period of time..."

hic !

14 August 2014 at 21:11  
Blogger Roy said...

@ IanCad

Nearly all the Albanian Jews survived the Holocaust. In fact Jewish survival rates in those dreadful Muslim countries far exceeded that of those in the occupied and merciful Christian lands.

It is very good to know that some Muslims did what they could to save Jews but you are not comparing like with like. How many Muslim countries did the Germans occupy?

As I said in my first post on this subject over 90% of the Danish Jews survived and the Danish Lutheran Church was very prominent in condemning anti-Semitism.

14 August 2014 at 22:09  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Do not Google 'Dong' Inspecteur Général Ordinaire - some meanings are très désagréable.


It must be very difficult living with you! How do you manage it?

14 August 2014 at 22:09  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


It must be very difficult living with you! How do you manage it?

By the frequent reminders on this august blog that there are far more bigger fools than me around.

14 August 2014 at 22:21  
Blogger The Explorer said...


Just looked up 'dong'. And here was me thinking it was the sound a bell made.

Hope Mrs Proudie isn't reading this stage of the thread. She'd be shocked.

Mind you, modern western man lives by your advice @ 20:46: to dong whatever we can. As young Sidney said a few threads back, and with slightly different wording, it's the meaning of life. And so it is, for a materialist.

14 August 2014 at 22:27  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Dreadnaught, "far more bigger", what's that all about?

14 August 2014 at 22:28  
Blogger Happy Jack said...



14 August 2014 at 22:30  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Happy Jack (19:17)—Muslims are offended by our secularised culture and behaviours

Muslims have been offended by everything non-Muslim since their Year Zero; Muslim offence stems not from our secularism but from our rejection of Islam.

A secular culture that has turned its back on God has no basis for building bridges or conversing with Islam

Islam is the final and perfect revelation of God’s word. It corrects the perverted messages of Judaism and Christianity and completely supersedes them. As such, Islam has no genuine interest in ‘building bridges or conversing’ with other faiths and cultures, which it sees as worthless. Any interest it does show is fake, a holding operation until the West falls to Islam.

14 August 2014 at 22:34  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...


...what's that all about?

You for one, and me for breaking my own rule in engaging with you.

14 August 2014 at 22:40  
Blogger The Explorer said...


Me for three. (As in Dreadnaught's post above).

Going back to this 'dong' issue, I recall now an incident in 'The Grapes of Wrath'.

There's a guy with one eye who's shy with women as a result.

Joad tells him to think positive. "Tell her your dong's growed since you lost your eye."

That must be an unbeatable chat up line.

Now. back to Muslims for those who wish to continue.

Myself, I'm off blog for a while.

14 August 2014 at 22:57  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...


"And so it is, for a materialist."

The animal kingdom is just so materialistic isn't it.

14 August 2014 at 22:59  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Jack wouldn't worry too much. Trading insults isn't exactly "engagement". It's as fruitless as hurling insults at 1.2 billion Muslims.


Not really into a more subtle approach then, based on attributes all people share? Oh, sorry, almost forgot, you don't believe in God, do you? It's all in the DNA programming of the non-Anglo-Saxon white *races*. It means they are programmed differently to *us* - not being hunter-gathers and all.

14 August 2014 at 23:04  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Offered in the spirit of the 'Escape from Sobibor' - humour as life affirming in in the face of challenging circumstances.

There's a scene in 'Sixteen Candles' a rather daft film from 1984.

Long Duk Dong is dancing with Lumberjack, his head is on her ample chest.
"So... What's your name?"
"Long Duk Dong:
"What's your first name?"
Long Duk Dong:
"What's your middle name?"
Long Duk Dong:

Goodnight - and apologies to Carl, who will disapprove, preferring to knock Cricket.

14 August 2014 at 23:20  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ & Sidney:

HJ: Thanks for that. All part of the rich fabric of life.

Sidders: Materialist: one who denies the existence of the spiritual.

To be materialistic and covet possessions (rich fabric etc) may, or may not, follow on from that. Epicurus was an extreme ascetic.

15 August 2014 at 07:45  
Blogger IanCad said...

Roy S

The Danes were wonderful and exceptional.
God bless them.

The greater Balkan region was occupied by the Germans. As was a large portion of N. Africa.
The number of Jewish victims in these areas, relative to population, was far smaller than in the enlightened, conquered European states.

Perhaps, as pertaining to the Balkans, the number of Serbs murdered by the Catholic Ustase would, doubtless, redress that oversight.

By no means am I defending the bloodthirsty Islamists of today; merely pointing out that genocide is an equal opportunity employer.


15 August 2014 at 09:00  
Blogger IanCad said...


Apologies, the above should have been addressed to you.
How I got Roy S, I don't know.
There was a Jim S way back in the thread.
I must start drinking tea again.

15 August 2014 at 09:09  
Blogger Len said...

See what sort of spirit has been active here.

15 August 2014 at 10:07  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

So what about Edward Snowden's take on the matter?

Not sure what to think about the putative "hornets' nest" but thought I would throw it out to enliven the debate and get it back more closely on track. Just occasionally it seems to travel the same ruts...

Having known a few Muslims, whilst disagreeing on rather a lot I am reluctant to saddle them with ultimate bogeyman/woman status, which a few on here seem to chafe at the bit to do.

15 August 2014 at 10:26  
Blogger The Explorer said...


"A man may live for the next world, and yet be merry." Thomas More.

After all, the title of this thread is about food banks as well as about Islam.

However, back to Muslims...

15 August 2014 at 10:32  
Blogger Ivan said...

I found a link over at the moonofalabama site, that seems rather prescient, written as it was in December of 2002. I have to acknowledge that it bolsters Johnny's case against mine (as discussed a month ago if he recalls) that the neo-con responsibility for the bloodshed engulfing Iraq is rather more than I accepted:


15 August 2014 at 10:34  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...



I think the link title says what it's about! There are reasonable Muslim voices out there, but they seem so few. It puzzles me why so many Muslims are silent and unwilling to distance themselves from the jihadists.

"Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them" ands it's not IS I am referring to here.

I think part of the problem is as a community they have an over developed sense of victimhood. Every society has decent people, but the silence is troubling.

15 August 2014 at 10:48  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Let's get really contentious.

Traditionally, the Beast of 'Revelation' is conceived of as being a revived Roman Empire. (Hence reservations of some about the EU). The Beast is thought of as operating a global financial and political system. (Hence reservations about the World Bank, UN etc).

Was the Flood global or local? Could covering the world be Eastern hyperbole for a wide area?

In the same way, could a global financial/political system simply mean an extensive one?

On that basis, could the ultimate Antichrist be a Muslim, and might the 'Beast' be a particularly-militant strain of Islam?

A rhetorical question for fellow believers to think about, in contrast to traditional neo-Roman-Empire focused expectations.

Obviously, those who don't believe in Christ won't believe in the Antichrist either. Since biblical prophecy is a fallacy for them, this whole post is a non-starter.

15 August 2014 at 10:50  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Clive @ 10:48

In 'Schindler's Ark', a German official with a conscience tries to exempt as many Jews from the camps as he can by declaring them as 'essential occupation'. Other officials trace the source of these exemptions, and he is sent to Auschwitz himself. Resistance o the system dries up.

Why didn't decent people in the East End speak out against the Kray twins? Why don't kids in school report bullies?

Answer: fear. And a realistic expectation of reprisal.

15 August 2014 at 10:55  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


I'm not sure if I accept your reasoning. It's to easy an excuse. Are they really that afraid? Why does the author of the piece I linked not mention this as the issue? He seems clear that it's hypocrisy and not fear that's driving it.

I cannot believe a whole community is evil , although I do believe a belief system can be.

Rather than throwing accusations of Islamophobia about, as a community Muslims need to take a clear and vocal stance.

15 August 2014 at 11:08  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Clive @ 11:08

Good point. Certainly, PC has instructed Muslims to see themselves as victims: and they have taken it to heart and added it to any innate grievances of their own.

A mixture of hypocrisy and fear is probably the answer. Remember, those who are truly afraid will be too afraid to articulate their fear.

It has been said that the ideal judge in a Mafia trial is one with a terminal illness and no loved ones.

Having a wife and kids are powerful motives for keeping one's peace. And Islam is a religion with a violent streak in it: those who take their sacred book literally.

15 August 2014 at 11:29  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


There's a possible clue to your question of silence in the link Jack posted yesterday.

If Muslims, even good hearted ones who want to live here in peace, feel essentially alienated from our culture and witness it as being spiritual barren, might they be reluctant to publically criticise their belief system? As Benedict suggested, we're dealing with an ideology as well as a faith system. Being critical of fundamentalists, even fanatical murdering bastards, may be experienced as denying Allah in favour of what they see as Western moral corruption. That said, fear will be a factor too.

15 August 2014 at 11:49  
Blogger Preacher said...

Still here then everybody? For what it's worth, Muslims believe that they alone have the truth. This plus the threat of being apostate & thus rejected & killed makes it harder to reach them with the gospel, (quite understandable).
Many view the West as somewhere between Jonah's Nineveh or Sodom & Gomorrah. Their tolerance & view of Western society Varies from person to person. Many feel safe only in an enclave, this is also the case for immigrants Worldwide.

Because Christ died for them as much as for us, we as Christians have to reach them with the gospel, genuinely love them & care about their eternal destiny. This is not a duty, challenging, yes, but if we have the Holy Spirit within, very rewarding & much easier.

There has been a lot of talk about the number of Muslims 1.2 billion I think was the last estimate here, but why are some Bloggers so despondent? Yes all the ambitions of Islam are to make the whole World Islamic.
But surely this has to be the aim of all true followers of Jesus, to bring the World to Christ!.
The first Church was faced with a Whole World of Pagan believers, but if they had shirked their work, there would be no Christian Church to belong to now. Saul was a Chief persecutor, but when God got hold of him, he became one of the foremost Disciples, Church planters & writers of epistles to the fledgling Christian Churches ever.
Therefore take heart, study your Bibles, know what & who you believe in & why you know it,s true. Be ready & prepared to give your account to all who ask - in general, Muslims enjoy a good debate about religion, they see it as the opening gambit to your conversion. But many who enter a game with the belief they are going to win are wrong.
Study the Word, be filled with the Holy Spirit & pray daily for the opportunities to share the gospel.

15 August 2014 at 11:52  

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