Saturday, August 09, 2014

None dare call it evil - except Archbishop Justin Welby

Our politicians are at last speaking about the terror, torture, mass murder and genocide being meted out upon Christians and other minorities by the Islamic State in Iraq. Their assessment of the situation ranges from "completely unacceptable" to "barbaric". Cardinal Vincent Nichols astutely calls it "a persecution of immense proportions". The Archbishop of Canterbury calls it "evil". And not only is it evil, but "part of an evil pattern around the world where Christians and other minorities are being killed and persecuted for their faith". And he refers specifically to Northern Nigeria, Syria, South Sudan and the Central African Republic.

It doesn't take a genius to work out that his subject is radical Islam and the malignant Saudi-backed Salafist strain.

Archbishop Justin knows a thing or two about evil: he has stared it in the face down the barrel of a gun while trying to bring peace and reconciliation to the warlords, bandits and murderous thugs of Africa. When you expect to die and phone your wife to say goodbye, you may begin to grasp what it is to agonise, grieve and suffer because of evil.

Archbishop Justin says that this "evil pattern around the world" is brutally violating people's right to freedom of religion and belief. It is, in fact, killing them for their faith in Jesus Christ. It is persecuting them for heresy, apostasy and infidelity to the temporal objectives and literal truths revealed by Mohammed. The Salafi-Jihadists or Jihadi-Salafists who agitate for a caliphate may constitute less than 0.5 percent of the world's 1.9 billion Muslims, but that still numbers them around 10 million - sufficient to establish an evil pattern of hard-line Islamisation around the world.

It is good that we have an Archbishop of Canterbury who discerns manifestations of evil not only in the principalities and powers of the spiritual realm, but also in the muddled and murky politics of the temporal. His nature is averse to the discordant skirmishes of religio-political polarisation: his heart inclines toward peace and reconciliation. But he knows the unmistakable signs of the times, and can read the moods and movements that transcend the materialistic, corrupt, decadent and immoral obsessions of the age. He won't call it a "clash of civilisations", but we have in Justin Welby an Archbishop who knows that the greatest threat to the Judæo-Christian ethic is the Islamic revival movement which we call Islamism, Jihadism, extremist or political Islam.

Right across the Arab-Muslim world, from the coastal plains of the Maghreb to the Himalayan peaks of Pakistan, a Quranic Curtain is descending. Whatever its fanatical creed and sectarian form, this veil of darkness is asserting the superiority of a culture and civilisation which is inimical to Western notions of politics, religion, morality and enlightenment, to the point that they want to cleanse the earth of all that impedes and obstructs the establishment of the Caliphate - the Islamic State.

The evil pattern which is emerging around the world must be routed and disordered. Their future is not ours. This is the repressive and brutal evil which confronts us. Thank God Justin Welby calls it so.


Blogger Martin said...

It isn't Islam that is the problem, that is just part of the problem. We have a society careless of God, who regards what is good as bad & what is bad as good. We have a society that knows little of love but a great deal of lust and rights.

Yes, people are dying at the hands of evil men, but people are also dying eternally in their sin.

"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell." Mttw 10:28

9 August 2014 at 10:01  
Blogger John Wrake said...

Sadly, the distinction drawn between Islam and Islamism is a false one.

The only real distinction within Islam is between those areas where it is in a majority and where it is in a minority.

John Wrake.

9 August 2014 at 10:14  
Blogger The Explorer said...

"The greatest threat to the Judaeo-Christian ethic is the Islamic revival movement."

The greatest EXTERNAL threat, certainly.

But it is the internal threat of self-doubt brought on by cultural pessimism/cultural relativism/postmodernism call it what you will that has made that external threat possible.

9 August 2014 at 10:23  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...

A Church assailed by false teaching and doubt in the West, and put to the sword in the East.

It is almost as if the Lord has permitted something to be unleashed against His Church.

9 August 2014 at 10:27  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

John Wrake

"The only real distinction within Islam is between those areas where it is in a majority and where it is in a minority." You have hit the proverbial nail on the head, fella.

As Warsi has shown, the muslim only cares about Islam and nothing else and will say sympathetic platitudes but condemning their own aint an option.

We need to stop more muslims coming into our country and putting them in positions of authority. We only encourage their boldness by our pathetic weakness/cowardice of dealing with issues and with our out of touch politicians pandering to anything for money or a vote or both!!

We have the monstrosity of a foreign flag flying over a government building in tower hamlets, Bradford and Preston yet our flag of st george is refused or deemed jingoistic??

This evil must be dealt with sooner rather than later.

E S Blofeld

9 August 2014 at 10:32  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Not matter how they dress it up - pig in a frock is still a pig.

Islam is the PIG.

9 August 2014 at 10:35  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...


Perhaps we christians need to agitate more vocally and visually as the muslim does and let politicians know our vote can't be taken for granted anymore by their nominal mentioning of their 'christian values'...and as craftily with a smile on our faces, as they (the moderate muslim??) do.


9 August 2014 at 10:37  
Blogger The Explorer said...

AIB @ 10:27

It certainly looks that way to me.

9 August 2014 at 10:41  
Blogger The Explorer said...

I would say an analogy for the current situation may be found in 'The Lord of the Rings': book, rather than film.

Rohan and Gondor are subject to a two-pronged attack.

One prong is a formidably-armed and numerically-superior external enemy. The other prong is the spiritual despair of the respective leaders: which so saps the will to resist that an external assault is almost unnecessary. Self-destruction is the order of the day.

9 August 2014 at 10:58  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

With what is happening in the Middle East with ISIS and the 'Islamic revival' it is easy to mistake this as strength and confidence on behalf of these 'fighters' and all who are pushing this agenda. We mustn't fall into the trap of believing this lie. What is happening has happened because Islamic nations have failed and for all the talk of the degenerate west, they covet our wealth and success. These societies have failed for hundreds of years. For all the talk of the great Islamic learning, the scientific and Mathematic discoveries, all these stopped prior to the crusades. Islamic art has petrified and just repeats what has gone before. For all it's scorn it looks at the Christian west and knows it doesn't even come a close second. Islam may try to revive its fortunes by butchery but actually it is in an irreversable decline. If this is the best it can offer it is sickening unto death.
It is good that the voices rising above this are Christian ones, Archbishop Welby, the Pope and Canon White amongst others. Hopefully our politicians will listen. I see revival here, but not in Islam.

9 August 2014 at 11:02  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

To the true Muslim, the greatest good is the growth and eventual triumph of Islam. Anything, absolutely anything, including lying, killing, plundering, raping and mutilating that promotes these goals is justified, and therefore not evil.

In Islam, the ends justify the means. There is no other moral standard than Mohammed, the perfect man.

9 August 2014 at 11:19  
Blogger bluedog said...

Archbishop Welby's comments represent an important development in the debate, Your Grace. One hopes the political elite will feel suitably emboldened.

If we look back to GW Bush's famous war on terror, or War of Terror as the estimable Borat called it, the singular failure was an inability to recognise the root cause. Your Grace's communicants have needed no prompting in recognising that Islam itself is the problem. But others have been less insightful.

The next step is for a mainstream politician to concede that the West faces an ideological battle and that the opposing combatant is Islam. It is rapidly becoming impossible even for the political class to deny this.

Certainly, now that Warsi has departed from Cameron's inner circle, we will hopefully no longer have to listen to absurd commentary that 'this is not Islam' as a soldier is decapitated on a London street.

So who will be the first politician to come out as an Islamophobe? Any guesses?

9 August 2014 at 11:21  
Blogger Ian G said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 August 2014 at 11:22  
Blogger Ian G said...

I agree with Clive Mitchell's analysis. Islam is dying, as is Satan. Both in the last throes of their inevitable defeat can take an awful lot of people with them. Some they will only remove from this world, others they will take with them into the darkness.

After D-Day Hitler's fate was sealed, but some of the hardest battles of the War were still to come.

9 August 2014 at 11:24  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Clive @ 11:02

Not just Christian achievements within Christendom, but also Christian contributions to Islamic culture.

The Dome of the Rock was designed by Byzantines. Sinan, the great architect of Istanbul, was a captured Greek.

Probus of Antioch, who introduced the Arabs to Aristotle, was a Christian. So was the author of the first Arabic-language medical treatise. So was the builder of the first hospital in Baghdad (albeit a Nestorian).

My intended focus was less on Islam's strength than on Christendom's loss of faith in its Founder.

I agree that the stand taken by Welby, the Pope and Canon White are encouraging signs. (My intention is not preach despair, but to preach renewal.)

9 August 2014 at 11:25  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Newsnight interviewed the 'Bangladeshi'youths who were responsible for the Black Flag incident in East London - the one taken down by a nun.

'It's going back up - nothing to do with ISIS - it's our right's our Faith innit!'

It's also the ISIS trade-mark. What is there not to 'get' about the fact that the enemy is within and demanding Rights and laughing their 'heads off'.

Let's Never Forget, Lee Rigby!

9 August 2014 at 11:31  
Blogger Len said...

Radical Islam is the 'open door' through which Satan can pour death and destruction on his enemies the Jews and Christians first then anyone who will not bow the head to his murderous doctrines.
The West needs to wake up to this fact before it is too late.
The West has become focused on the innocent victims of Islamic terrorism(the Palestinians in Gaza) when it should be focused on the cause(Islamic terrorists)
Radical Islam (once cloaked under the veil of' the religion of peace') is now coming out as a barbarous evil force to which no evil act is beyond its members.

9 August 2014 at 11:36  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


Thanks for reminding us the sources of so many 'Islamic' achievements. I wasn't intending to suggest you were preaching dispair. I was only keen that we shouldn't buy into the Islamic lie that all this evil is a sign of strength. It isn't, it is a sign of their despair. We need to do more to help those affected by this genocide, but Islam is dying it is not triumphant.
I also think we shouldn't be do quick to denigrate the great liberal achievements of our society, so many are rooted in our Christian heritage. We need to defend these as ISIS all to clearly shows what the alternatives can be.

9 August 2014 at 11:45  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Your Grace,

Well said Cranmer. Thank you.

Very well said Archbishop Justin Welby and Cardinal Vincent Nichols. It is high time that the plain facts and the unadorned truth was spoken out loud from those on high within our Churches. I want all the Christian Churches to speak as one on these matters. I also want governments to speak out and act, using all the means at governments' disposal, including appropriate, realistic military action

Like others who responded here before me, I want to encourage renewal and will work to that end in my locality. Having had such prominent Church leaders say these things endorses my freedom to point to the truth, despite what may be the wishes of those within the churches who refuse to call evil by its plain name.

9 August 2014 at 11:45  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

Not every Nazi was a gas-chamber operator. But every Nazi shared the ideology that condoned gas-chambers and made them possible.

Jihadist sympathisers and enablers need to be blocked from positions of power and influence, and also from opportunities for espionage and sabotage (eg armed forces).

9 August 2014 at 11:51  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

@ Len
I'm not sure that Islam is the work of Satan. It has, as Churchill noted, more of the characteristics of a virulent, contagious mental illness. A kind of spiritual Ebola.

9 August 2014 at 12:08  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

In the Gaza Strip now, according to Y Net News, Hamas has been seriously weakened and may be on the way out. But the next lot that are hoping to step in and take over, such as Islamic Jihad, are no less evil.

9 August 2014 at 12:14  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

You can learn much through racial profiling, you know. To wit, the default settings of any race. What runs in the blood, so to speak. Very popular a hundred years ago. For example, you knew then you were dealing with a hill top tribesman who liked to fire his rifle in the air at weddings and beat his wife into silence just for jolly, and not some otherwise potential clean shaven would be Englishman to be dressed in tweeds. Don’t expect too much from the {AHEM} ‘less achieving’ peoples of the world, and you won’t be disappointed.

There. That’s all one wishes to say at the present moment.

9 August 2014 at 12:20  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Clive Mitchell (11:02)—Islamic nations have failed … they covet our wealth and success

Measured by the criteria of belief and demography, Islam leaves the West on the starting line: Islam’s success is to be a creed that inspires intense devotion and its wealth pours out of the maternity wards. That would not matter very much if Islam had remained in its historic territories but now that its wealth is pouring out of our maternity wards, it is the West, for all its material achievements, that will go into the history books as the failure.

That need not be the outcome, of course. There’ll be light at the end of the tunnel when an archbishop summons up the courage to state that the ‘evil pattern around the world’ is the work of an evil religion. And names the religion.

9 August 2014 at 12:23  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


I don't really get your criteria of success. If I understand rightly it's about birth rate?

As far as I can see they deliver their children into a world of brutality and despair, with no future or hope.

We certainly have our problems, but I am glad my child was born into this world and not theirs. I am glad it won't be the failure of a suicide vest he will be strapping on.

I prefer the western, christian 'failure' then the Islamic success any day. Their nations have failed and now we are seeing the abject failure of their faith.

9 August 2014 at 12:42  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


No, Islamism is a manifestation of evil and behind it lies demoniac forces. It has to be confronted and stopped. And, of course, it grips people's minds. That's how evil works.

According to your 'meme' "all religions (unless they can prove themselves otherwise) are harmful mental parasites, whose only function is to infect as many people as possible, regardless of the chaos they cause in the process. "

"The meme theory of religion is probably the most devastating critique of dogma-based religions yet devised, Basically, it claims that ALL religions are worthless mental parasites, driven by a bogeyman's threats and fairytale promises."

And Buddhism's solution to evil? His meme? We'll all sit under the apple-tree and ... er ... meditate and find our 'higher selves'?

There is no God there is no after-life, just an impersonal, eternal Nirvana that we re-join after a succession of lives by which we reach enlightenment? Care to prove that one by reason and by observation?

9 August 2014 at 12:48  
Blogger AnonymousInBelfast said...


Just so what I am about to write is put in the right context: I agree that more should be done, and that we have a duty to do all that we can to persuade our government and successive governments to act justly on behalf of the suffering and innocent.

However, it won't happen like that. There's an awful kind of inevitability about many of the scenes we see today - whether it's in Ukraine, Gaza or Ninevah. We won't do anything past a certain point because it will cost us so much. There is something indescribable in the juxtaposition of our remembrance of a war in which men and women left behind all semblance of domesticity to fight a war with atrociously high costs, and the present day grief of the world.

We aren't an Empire, we have not sufficient power to achieve all the many objectives - moral though they may be - that press at us, and, in any case, unless I have entirely misjudged our age, I do not think we would rise to meet any call to arms were it so made. More likely, we would overthrow the government and install someone better suited to negotiating for the salvation of the lifestyles to which we have become accustomed.

Obviously, there's no imperative for conscription (of UK forces) to meet the problems in the Middle East, but since much of the comment here will focus on the anticipated future in which the West truly is threatened, I point out what seems obvious to me: we have lost the will to fight for what we believe in, perhaps because we have lost what we believe in.

Our government will be acting in many ways responsibly if it does not allow the country to be dragged into a lasting conflict - there is no mandate, no will, our armies are underequipped, and are not, in any case, police forces. We made the mistake of using the military to fulfil the function of the apparatus of empire once (well, twice) recently, and won't do so again.

But the cost will be the continuation of the slaughter. This shouldn't be anything new to you: the great powers' ability to bring meaningful peace has been tarnished for a long time. Perhaps they never possessed it.

The point from a spiritual perspective is this: we must not be surprised when things go from bad to worse. We must do all that we can to mitigate suffering, but in the end, whether that comes quickly or slowly, it will not be possible to hold back from the abyss. We just have to look to the One who stands to meet the forward rush of time.

9 August 2014 at 12:55  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

The international community must document human rights abuses being committed in northern Iraq so that future prosecutions can take place. It is important and necessary for the international community to challenge the culture of impunity which has allowed these atrocities to take place.

Good grief. It takes special talent to say something that colossally naive.

In the first place, there is no 'International community.' That is a convenient abstraction used to imply some shared sense of civilizational unity when in fact none exists. The 'International community' is shorthand for 'Western sensibilities extrapolated up to the national level.' It emphatically cannot be used to imply what it is meant to imply - that the nations of the world are converging on some standard of civilized behavior and these events are outliers.

It also implies that this 'community' has something like authority in the collective. It doesn't. Such authority as it might possess extends exactly as far as the violence it is willing to commit to enforce that authority. But 'the international community' doesn't have the means to employ violence. Nation states posses that ability. Therefore only nation states can truly possess authority. And most of the nations who would be considered part of the 'international community' have traded in the capability to use force for national heath care. It's hard to exert authority with a thermometer.

"But where did he call for violence?" you might ask. "He simply said that crimes should be documented for prosecution." Presumably by that Opera Buffa in Belgium ironically labeled the ICC. And who is going to act as enforcer for this court? Will it issue arrest warrants and subpoenas and expect the defendants to just present themselves for prosecution? Is this how we end the culture of impunity? By issuing empty threats from powerless courts trying to enforce non-existent laws against people who will mock their solemn pronouncements ...with impunity?

No, if you want to end the culture of impunity, you send soldiers to kill and impose their will. Only then you will be able to seize those defendants and send them to that comical court. In the meantime you might notice that its "rule of law" is totally dependent upon the very thing it hopes to supplant - the necessity of nations to use violence in the settlement of certain conflicts.

So if these images trouble you, then demand your gov't rebuild its capability to fight. Don't issue contemptible warnings about prosecutions that will never be performed. Threaten violence with violence. Threaten death with death. Respond to impunity with subjugation. Then you will be doing something useful. It will be useful because it will be effective.

I told you that if you refuse on principle to intervene, then you would have to accept that bad things would happen in full view, and nothing would be done. You can't have it both ways.

Reposted from Anglican Down Undet

9 August 2014 at 13:00  
Blogger Nick said...

Describing the actions of IS as "evil" is a significant step. Don't underestimate the importance of language in the framing of ideas and opinions. I wonder when the Islamic clerics in this country will start to use the same language? Or maybe they are closet supporters.

On the flip side we have the mealy-mouthed Foreign Office saying it will consider UK military action if the situation "starts to look genocidal". What criteria for "genocidal" they will use is unclear. Presumably it is when Jon Snow starts reporting from Erbil.

9 August 2014 at 13:30  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


So then are we back to:

"... bomb the bastards as needed, and then put in power a handful of your bastards. People who know what they must do to stay alive and enjoy a life of luxury and privilege ...

Our bastards everywhere, and woe to them if they touch our interests. This is what works.

Give war a chance. Give violence a chance. Give fear a chance."

All that's preventing it is the political will and the military capacity? Or has Jack misunderstood you?

Surely there has to be a better way? Or is the hope for a more civilised community of nations, who share common standards and act together when necessary, naivety?

9 August 2014 at 13:39  
Blogger The Explorer said...


As I understand it, that means going beyond killing a lot of people for strategic reasons.

That means a systematic attempt to exterminate a particular group for ideological reasons.

Thus the attempt to exterminate the Herero was genocide: driven by a white-world-only ideology.

Rwanda was genocide. The attempt by one tribal group to remove another tribal group from existence; although for reasons I have never really been able to fathom. I'm sure I'm not alone in that.

Now if the IS members really believe that the Yazidi are worshippers of Shaitan, then I imagine the possibility of genocide is very real. To remove such an evil from the world might be a pious duty.

9 August 2014 at 14:08  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


There are a couple of consistent responses to what is happening in Iraq.

1. Intervene, and fight.
2. Accept that nothing can be done.

But it worse than pointless to declare something evil, and then utter banalities about crimes and prosecutions. Those statements are not meant to be serious policy prescriptions. They are intended to provide a fig leaf for the conscience of those who want the slaughter stopped, but without any violence, and certainly without any intervention. It presents the illusion of another way forward that satisfies justice - yet without cost. This isn't a serious statement. It's the equivalent of calling for justice through the application of a Care Bear Stare.

He should have the courage of his convictions. He should confront directly the reality of the situation. "Bad things happen in the world. If you don't want to intervene, and you can't handle the pictures, that's fine. Then change the channel." But don't sit on a chair and say how terrible this all is. Don't say that somebody should go do something someday when some mythical international policeman arrests the criminal. Don't credit the false hope of prosecution. Say instead that the world is full of injustice that will never see retribution in this lifetime.

There are no easy answers to bad things happening elsewhere. This is too much about Western observers and their desire to reach some satisfactory conclusion for themselves. Too much of wish fulfillment for the sake of the guilt of the unafflicted. Not enough of staring reality in its cold hard face.


9 August 2014 at 14:16  
Blogger Ivan said...

Explorer, about the Yazdis I am afraid that you may be right.

9 August 2014 at 14:23  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Clive Mitchell (12:42)—Yes, birth rate. Bradford, Luton and Tower Hamlets may well be worlds of brutality and despair but, leaving that to one side for the moment, the 2013 census makes plain the extent of Christian failure:

‘While almost half of British Muslims are under the age of 25, almost a quarter of Christians are over 65. The average age of a British Muslim is just 25, not far off half that of a British Christian.’—Daily Telegraph

Sooner or later, the country your descendants are born into will be Muslim, not Christian. It will have become ‘theirs’.

9 August 2014 at 14:27  
Blogger Ivan said...

Johnny you can turn them Christian. The birth rates will change, they always do.

9 August 2014 at 14:32  
Blogger Roy said...

The ideology of ISIS and similar movements is undoubtedly evil. To some extent the West and possibly Russia and even China (although having them as allies would bring problems) could tackle the problem by military means and are obviously strong enough to do so with some degree of success.

However military success might simply drive the problem underground for a while, which is what happened with the War on Terror.

The Apostles and other early Christians did not go around denouncing the evils of the Roman Empire. They changed it from within by showing people "a more excellent way." As the saying goes it is better to light a candle than to curse the darkness.

In Britain and other Western countries there are new mission fields. Some parts of the Middle East may be closed to the gospel but the Middle East has come to us. We need people like General William Booth and the Salvation Army to take the gospel into the East End of London and similar places.

9 August 2014 at 15:00  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


I think we are looking at this from different perspectives. I don't think what you are saying, even if true, changes where I am coming from. I think we are arguing about different things.

9 August 2014 at 15:29  
Blogger Tom O'Brien said...

Very powerful blog and well written. I drifted seamlessly onto the earlier posts and they tell a desperate story which maybe now is starting to be seen by the West's politicians. Let's pray to the Risen Christ that it is not too late for those of our brothers and sisters in Christ, that are facing daily persecution throughout the Middle East and North Africa and Pakistan.

Let's hope too that the ambivalence shown in Europe and indeed, the USA, is replaced with a clear understanding of the mortal danger that our way of life and, as we see in Iraq, our very existence, now faces.

9 August 2014 at 15:29  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Happy Jack is in agreement - and at the moment it seems there is little we can do other than attempt some form of limited humanitarian mission.

What do you think of Obama's latest reflections on Foreign policy? It can be read here: Obama on Middle East.

He is adopting a "no victor/no vanquished" approach, it seems. Different communities in conflict have to adopt "inclusive politics".

"“We cannot do for them what they are unwilling to do for themselves. Our military is so capable, that if we put everything we have into it, we can keep a lid on a problem for a time. But for a society to function long term, the people themselves have to make decisions about how they are going to live together, how they are going to accommodate each other’s interests, how they are going to compromise ... We can help them and partner with them every step of the way. But we can’t do it for them.”

Is this just liberal, pluralistic idealism - or is it a cover for doing nothing?

In Jack's view, there are some ideologies that will never accommodate another and they will be constant conflict until one eventually defeats the other.

9 August 2014 at 16:16  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Happy Jack

I think the problem with Obamas analysis is that it suggests each side is equally to blame and each needs to compromise. In relation to what is happening between ISIS and the Christian communities (and other religious minorities) absolute guff. Their is no compromise they can make that can satisfy a force like ISIS.

9 August 2014 at 16:28  
Blogger The Explorer said...


Obama's statement reminds me of investigations into bullying (school or workplace) that lack a realistic view of human nature, and seek for explanations other than malevolence.

"What did you do to provoke him/her? How did you attract his/her attention?"

Reality: you may have done nothing whatsoever. All that was needed was for you to exist.

It reminds me also of chamberlain's early words about Hitler (paraphrased from memory. Something to the effect of, "Chancellor Hitler is perfectly reasonable; provided he is treated with respect."

9 August 2014 at 16:43  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Clive M

Agreed - it is the same with Communism. President Ronald Reagan called Russia an "Evil Empire" and adopted an aggressive, hard-line stance against it. He saw it as a struggle of right and wrong, of good against evil.

"They preach the supremacy of the state, declare its omnipotence over individual man and predict its eventual domination of all peoples on the Earth. They are the focus of evil in the modern world...."

This could just as easily apply to Islamism in the 21st century - just swap State for Islam.

9 August 2014 at 16:49  
Blogger Shadrach said...

Your Grace,

For Welby to speak so is encouraging but what action has he taken? The very least he could do is send some support to Cannon White.

He does need to stay focussed however as he can't be heard on Iraqi and Nigeria at the same time.

There are lots of comments above that are very good and encompass the situation succinctly.

9 August 2014 at 16:50  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

Well, one cheer for Justin Welby.
I have still never heard him preach the Gospel or read of him doing so.

It is not Islamists who are sacrificing 200,000 unborn children to the secular Moloch each year, nor is it they who have legislated for same-sex marriage, something which the most depraved pagan societies of the past have never done; it is our post-Christian society which does not know the Gospel because it is not preached. If Welby wants to call something evil, he could start with these things and finish by calling the nation back to the Saviour.

Is it any wonder that God says, 'Indeed, I am raising up the Chaldeans, a bitter and hasty nation which marches through the breadth of the earth to possess dwelling-places not their own......' (Habakkuk 1:6)?

9 August 2014 at 16:59  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


When Jack was growing up he was taught to firstly ignore, then actively resist bullies and to give as good as one got - with a little more besides.

9 August 2014 at 17:01  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Martin M @ 16:59

Actually, Nero had a same-sex marriage.

According to Tacitus, "The Emperor, in the presence of witnesses, put on a bridal veil. Dowry, marriage bed, wedding torches, all were there."

Mind you, what culture can draw comfort from the though that it's following in the footsteps of Nero? As a gauge of social health - help!

9 August 2014 at 17:08  
Blogger The Explorer said...


That was then. I'm talking about modern wuss culture.

Did your school have an official, written anti-bullying charter? (Agreed to by everyone except the bullies, who blithely ignore it.)

9 August 2014 at 17:10  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


One was taught right from wrong. There were bullies, of course, but resilience based on respect for oneself and others was also part of the school culture. No one ran to teachers looking to be protected, though they kept an eye on things from a distance and relied on prefects to help maintain order.

We had competitive, segregated sport too where you learned to play by the rules, go for victory and accept defeat graciously.

Seems like another world.

One notes our new Education Secretary wants toddlers to be taught to "challenge negative attitudes and stereotypes" - now what could she mean? They will also be taught how to take turns and share, as well as the difference between right and wrong - based on what? No "extremism" will be permitted - what is this? However, we are assured "Bible stories" will remain acceptable.

9 August 2014 at 18:05  
Blogger The Explorer said...

JH @ 18:05

Based on what, indeed?

When Arab leaders visited Paris post WWI, they were so delighted with the running water that they wanted to take the taps away with them.

It had to be pointed out that behind the taps was a complicated system of pipes: without which, the taps would not function.

I have the same sort of feeling about those who want to appropriate Christian ethics without the metaphysical backup.

Given you recent allegory of the plant - which I appreciated if Avi didn't - I thought you might enjoy this little analogy.

Regards. Off blog now, until tomorrow.

9 August 2014 at 18:23  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ, even.

9 August 2014 at 18:25  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Johnny: "Sooner or later, the country your descendants are born into will be Muslim, not Christian. It will have become ‘theirs’."

I really don't think so, provided we carefully restrict immigration and actively promote our liberal culture. The high birth rate is primarily for new immigrants as I've said many times. The statistics show this when you can get hold of them.

9 August 2014 at 18:32  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

DanJ0. Your beloved liberalism, brought in on a tide of post war optimism, is now leaving on the next tide. There is a new reality in formation. The average man in the street, or shall we say pub, is more concerned in making the most of it in an overcrowded country, full of increasing numbers of immigrants out to grab what the rest of us, including said drinker, have spent years paying for. The only liberals left are the ones in parliament, who see no reason at the moment to change the way it is. However, come the next election, and with hopefully Milli thing running for Labour, we’ll see how quickly they come round to the new way of thinking. One does believe they’ll be falling over themselves in the rush – don’t you ?

9 August 2014 at 18:58  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Ivan (14:32)—Why would Muslims in the West abandon an assertive faith with a young demographic for an apologetic faith that is ageing and dying?

@ Clive Mitchell (15:29)—I agree with everything you say about the ills of the Islamic world. I simply observe that, as Muslims are now living in Europe and as their population is growing while ours is shrinking, there will come a tipping point where the ownership of Europe will change hands. For all its ills, Islam will have won because, as Mark Steyn says, ‘The future belongs to those who show up for it.’

@ DanJ0 (18:32)—It’s our liberal culture that welcomed Islam with open arms and now feeds and clothes its hordes; liberal culture needs strangling not promoting. A culture that forbids abortion vs one that practises it, a culture that marries young vs one that marries later in life, a culture of large families vs a culture of small families, and polygamy vs monogamy. The odds are stacked against us. More accurately, liberal culture has stacked the odds against us.

9 August 2014 at 19:08  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "The only liberals left are the ones in parliament, who see no reason at the moment to change the way it is."

Hardly. We're dominant in the Intelligentsia, in spite of faith schools. People just need to understand political themes more clearly, and have a better understanding of our history for the last 600 years.

"However, come the next election, and with hopefully Milli thing running for Labour, we’ll see how quickly they come round to the new way of thinking."

You hope to see Millibrain as prime minister? Crikey.

9 August 2014 at 19:10  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Jonny: "It’s our liberal culture that welcomed Islam with open arms and now feeds and clothes its hordes; liberal culture needs strangling not promoting."

That'll be the liberal-left you're talking about, and more specifically New Labour. I'm talking about proper liberalism, not the socialism-lite of recent decades.

9 August 2014 at 19:12  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Oh DanJ0, you do disappoint at times. 2015 is going to be UKIP’s year. Cameron has earned the antipathy of the party faithful through his dog like devotion to a degenerate social change. The Lib-Dem vote will collapse as the people who protest voted for them are well disgusted at their naked opportunism, and Labour are offering a fellow who is beginning to look like Trotsky, and apparently has trouble speaking English...

9 August 2014 at 19:18  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "2015 is going to be UKIP’s year."

Really? I thought they'd died a death recently. But I've not been following voter opinion polls for a while.

9 August 2014 at 19:23  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


We're dominant in the Intelligentsia

Yeh. Being part of that dominant intelligencia really helped Kamenev and Bukharin. When the husk of secularism gives way, that identification won't be what you might call a social asset.


9 August 2014 at 19:44  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl: "Yeh. Being part of that dominant intelligencia really helped Kamenev and Bukharin."

Jeez. The context is the UK in the 21st century, we're a modern, stable, relative well-off liberal-democracy.

9 August 2014 at 19:59  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


“One has to belong to the intelligentsia to believe things like that; no ordinary man could be such a fool.”
(George Orwell)

One needs ambition and the wherewithal to actively seek political and social power. And what groups seeks it and misuse it in this "modern, stable, relative well-off liberal-democracy"?

"The fish stinks first at the head" is a poor metaphor biologically. Nevertheless, it captures a truth.

9 August 2014 at 20:28  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 August 2014 at 20:59  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

9 August 2014 at 21:00  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

To Roy at 15:00

You've a point BUT that's exactly what the Islamists are trying to do to us! Their way of teeling us Islam is better is through change from within by provocation and violence. We've a real clash of culture and ideology, and the only way we are to stop it is to block it at every corner and on every street, making sure it cannot progress along the road while we still have the ability to. More Christ and less Allah.

Abu Mounisa and others are out there preaching that our culture of freedom and democracy, our capitalist society is evil and should be destroyed and replaced with Allah and the Islamic culture.

"We need to behead capitalism from its roots, take it, kill it from its roots. That is what we need to do. We should hate it so much, my dear brothers, that every day, we should attack their system. Every day. Just like the Prophet Muhammad did."

"This is how we should feel. This is how we should believe. We should have the zeal in our hearts, for the sake of Allah, to destroy all their system and replace it with Islam."

"That is what we need to do, my dear brothers. We need to attack the leaders. We need to turn around and attack, what's it? Daoud Kamroon... Cameron. He calls him Daoud Kamroon. We need to attack him. We need to say: Your laws are oppressive. We need to deal with those laws, and replace them with Islam. "Whoever rejects the Taghout and believes in Allah..." So we would destroy his system and replace it with Islam. That is what we need to do."

This man and others spouting stuff like he does should be arrested and jailed for treason then deported.

9 August 2014 at 21:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Yes, that is the context now. What will be the context when an entitled population that believes in nothing but its own prosperity suddenly finds itself poor?


9 August 2014 at 21:44  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl, my comment about the dominance in the Intelligentsia was in response to this by the Inspector "The only liberals left are the ones in parliament, who see no reason at the moment to change the way it is." It's a simple statement of fact, not a diversion into early 20th century revolutionary Russia, despite the word I used. Keep up.

9 August 2014 at 21:55  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "More Christ and less Allah."

Christianity is all but dead in this country, other than as a private interest for a few million people. You need to look to the future, not hanker after the past, culturally speaking.

9 August 2014 at 22:02  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


Their is more at play here then demographics. This death cult won't win because it sems intent on self destruction. It still kills more of its own then the west ever has. It will destroy itself.
It is also not going to win because we have been promised that it won't.

9 August 2014 at 22:06  
Blogger David Hussell said...


Greetings !

I too am now a member of the Freedom Association and have just received my first package. At a glance it looks well thought through material.

9 August 2014 at 22:06  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Marie: "This man and others spouting stuff like he does should be arrested and jailed for treason then deported."

At the very least, it should be openly and widely reported what he is saying and the message discussed and challenged by people in the mainstream media. People are scared to be seen as racist because most of these people are brown-skinned and Islam is tied up in immigrant culture. The ideas need to be divorced from the people who hold them, as far as discussing them in concerned.

9 August 2014 at 22:11  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

The referendum for Scottish independence ought to be a good model for that. It's been recognised that there aren't many facts to be had about what will happen and that what people probably need to decide on is a vision for the future i.e. what kind of Scotland do they want. It should be the similar UK wide as far as culture, values, etc are concerned. We need a national conversation about what kind of country we want and what we need to put in place to get there. I expect that most people want freedom to do their own thing and pursue their own interests and goals. I'd like to see people recognise what it is about the UK that enables that, and actively engage to protect those core things that we value.

9 August 2014 at 22:20  
Blogger carl jacobs said...


Yes, yes, I realize all that. Just mentioning that dominating the intelligentsia is not a ticket to permanent dominance. Revolutionary Russia is instructive beyond its borders.

Or, to put it another way, when secular liberalism gives way, the liberal intelligentsia will be the last to realize it.


9 August 2014 at 22:30  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Damn good show David Hussell, you know it makes sense !

You must meet Simon Richards at some stage. A first rate egg as they say, with only the UK’s best interests at heart, as it must be in these days of what seems to be some awful form of international socialism with its resulting unpleasant and displeasing foreign influence.

Be seeing you...

9 August 2014 at 22:34  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Carl: "Just mentioning that dominating the intelligentsia is not a ticket to permanent dominance. Revolutionary Russia is instructive beyond its borders."

No need to go look for off-beat examples if you want to make that point. England at about the same time, when Christianity was dominant, is instructive too. I guess people just wanted different things over time in the end rather than members of the Intelligentsia being executed when a tyrant eventually took over after a revolution. I'm not really expecting Jonathan Dimbleby to be shot in front of Broadcasting House should people decide they're fed up having the freedom to pursue the own interests and goals in the future.

9 August 2014 at 22:52  
Blogger bluedog said...

Carl @ 21.44 says, ' What will be the context when an entitled population that believes in nothing but its own prosperity suddenly finds itself poor?'

Won't happen. There is enough human talent and energy in the UK to keep the country rich as long as humankind exists.

9 August 2014 at 23:00  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

“Christianity is all but dead in this country, other than as a private interest for a few million people. You need to look to the future, not hanker after the past, culturally speaking.”

You wish Danj0! No, Christianity is not dead.
I AM looking to the future, Christ is our saviour in more ways than one. He'll save us from the jaws of Islam, we just need to have faith to implement what he says wisely, uncompromisingly and with passion.

“At the very least, it should be openly and widely reported what he is saying and the message discussed and challenged by people in the mainstream media. People are scared to be seen as racist because most of these people are brown-skinned and Islam is tied up in immigrant culture. The ideas need to be divorced from the people who hold them, as far as discussing them in concerned.”

Yes it should be reported, and it doesn't matter what the speaker's skin colour is what Abu Mounisa is telling his followers is treason.
But people in our society either don't care as it doesn't effect them yet, or they are scared like you say, of being racist, but of course they are not being racist at all.

9 August 2014 at 23:17  
Blogger Pubcrawler said...

Abu Mounisa's words sound more like sedition than treason to me.

(From Wiki: In law, sedition is overt conduct, such as speech and organization, that is deemed by the legal authority to tend toward insurrection against the established order. Sedition often includes subversion of a constitution and incitement of discontent (or resistance) to lawful authority. Sedition may include any commotion, though not aimed at direct and open violence against the laws. Seditious words in writing are seditious libel. A seditionist is one who engages in or promotes the interests of sedition.)

Unfortunately, sedition is no longer an offence in English law. Unless he's an alien, that is. Wiki (again):

"In 1977, a Law Commission working paper recommended that the common law offence of sedition in England and Wales be abolished. They said that they thought that this offence was redundant and that it was not necessary to have any offence of sedition.[20] However this proposal was not implemented until 2009, when sedition and seditious libel (as common law offences) were abolished by section 73 of the Coroners and Justice Act 2009 (with effect on 12 January 2010).[21] Sedition by an alien is still an offence under section 3 of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act 1919.[22]"

10 August 2014 at 00:58  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Marie 1797

Happy Jack wouldn't be too troubled by this smug comment:

“Christianity is all but dead in this country, other than as a private interest for a few million people. You need to look to the future, not hanker after the past, culturally speaking.”

It was intended to provoke. It reminded Jack of Satan's goading of Jesus:

"If you are the Son of God," he said, "throw yourself down. For it is written: "'He will command his angels concerning you, and they will lift you up in their hands, so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.'"

And the taunting - trolling - of the thief during Christ's crucifixion:

"Now one of the criminals hanging there reviled Jesus, saying, "Are you not the Messiah? Save yourself and us."

The lesson from Calvary - and history - is that God always brings good from evil. Always.

We have to accept we do live in a post-Christian West where the concept of evil is being replaced with the godless notion that all the world's ills will be solved by *education* and by *tolerance* - if only we could shed religion dogma and free ourselves from ancient myths. You know this to be a deceit. Evil is real. It may be on the ascendency, for now.

This nation may be forsaking God and there will be consequences. We are already witnessing these. However, He never forsakes His people and has promised to be with us to the end of time.

Past generations have had to deal with far worse. Today, Eastern Christians are facing ruthless persecution. God has not forsaken them or us, just as he never abandoned the Christians who had to endure terrible suffering in the past. That's the message of Calvary too.

As Christians we must not allow the self satisfaction from the godless disturb us. They try to deny God, just as a child closes its eyes when confronted with something it does not want to see. Pretend He isn't there. God permits evil - then brings good from it. We should draw energy from this knowledge, just as Andrew White is, and live in our faith and endure these trials.

10 August 2014 at 01:35  
Blogger Marie1797 said...


Interesting. So in light of the mentality of immigrants coming here, we might well have to reinstate old outdated laws that we no longer needed in order to preserve and maintain the level of civilisation that we had achieved.

Another area that is having to be reviewed are slave labour and people trafficking offence laws.

This all points towards proof that too many immigrants are not good for Britain, and that multiculturalism is a hindrance rather than a help to the country.

10 August 2014 at 01:55  
Blogger Ivan said...

Johnny @19:08, certainly not the milksop Anglicans, but there are other tougher breeds of Christians. Or else the pagan roots. The clowns in Tower Hamlet and such like places dominated by the Muslims would not last a minute in many other parts of the world. It certainly looks like it would come to that in the UK.

10 August 2014 at 03:16  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo:"It was intended to provoke."

It's a statement of fact as church attendance figures, demographics, general behaviour, and the like show. I said it because it's all very well people saying that we need more Christ and less Allah but how is that actually going to happen? The majority of the indigenous people here are no longer religious or interested in becoming so and (say) a bunch of OT prophets berating them is not going to turn that around. If the claim is that Islam is more muscular than the host culture then the answer is surely to build on what we have and want rather than bleat about what used to be and is no longer wanted. My comment was in its proper context here. We both know why you're jumping on my comment and why you've used the words "goad" and "troll". As ever, you have unresolved psychological issues following on from an earlier thread and need to bring them onto the top one. *shrug*

10 August 2014 at 07:27  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Article :"It doesn't take a genius to work out that his subject is radical Islam and the malignant Saudi-backed Salafist strain."

It really is about time we stop treating Saudi Arabia as a partner.

10 August 2014 at 07:39  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


07:39 yes absolutely. I was wondering myself if ISIS is still getting active backing or had gone rogue. If still being backed by the Saudis we should start stripping the Princes of. their overseas assets.
Banning them from the country and stopping access to their favourite tarts would hurt to!!!!!!

10 August 2014 at 08:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Clive :"If still being backed by the Saudis we should start stripping the Princes of. their overseas assets."

It's not backing of terrorists so much as exporting their salafi interpretation of Islam in general. They donate money in the order of millions to build mosques in the UK and they do that for a reason. If salafism is regarded as counter-cultural and a direct threat to our collective way of life then why do we let them do it?

10 August 2014 at 08:48  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


Yes a good point. It did also occur to me that is their a risk that this might also provoke the sectarian strife you see in the Middle East ie Sunni v Shiate. Anyway you look at it it should be banned.
It's a strange world when the Iranians risk looking like the moderates.

10 August 2014 at 09:03  
Blogger IanCad said...


Therefore Pubcrawler raises an interesting point:

"--Sedition by an alien is still an offence under section 3 of the Aliens Restriction (Amendment) Act 1919.[22]"

Now, as I've stated before; militant Islam is militarily very weak.
They are under the misapprehension that toleration is acquiescence.
They need to be disabused of that idea PDQ.

The Alien Sedition acts should be dusted off

10 August 2014 at 09:12  
Blogger The Explorer said...


"You need to look to the future, not hanker after the past."

The fellow believers I know are all focused on the future. Not culturally-speaking, but they don't define Christianity primarily by its cultural significance because they don't see it as a human invention.

We are promised that before the end, the Gospel will have been preached to all nations. Not accepted by: a very different thing.

That there will be believers within all nations; not that all nations will be believers.

We are told that before the end of the present order - whenever that may be - there will be great persecution, a great falling away from the faith, and that the love of many will grow cold. Those whose faith is real will hold out to the end.

What we are not told to expect is that Christianity will be accepted by the whole world. The Christian expectation is very unlike the Islamic one: total submission as a result of human effort.

10 August 2014 at 09:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

IanCad: "The Alien Sedition acts should be dusted off"

It was slightly updated by the CJA 2003 so presumably it's still active. The blurb at the front talks about it applying in times of war or national emergency, and only to aliens (not the green variety). Hence Abu Mounisa is not covered by it. As a British national, he has a right to freedom of speech, qualified as usual by incitement and safety concerns. His stuff needs to be widely disseminated and openly challenged, rather than suppressed I think.

10 August 2014 at 09:28  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Explorer: "The fellow believers I know are all focused on the future. Not culturally-speaking, but they don't define Christianity primarily by its cultural significance because they don't see it as a human invention."

You picked up on the "culturally speaking" bit, which is good. I don't expect Christianity to die in the UK in the foreseeable future, nor do I particularly wish it to do so. I understand the theme you raised there of course, and recognise the difference in approach between [modern] Christianity and Islam there. However, in the meantime, I think Christians usually recognise that god helps those who help themselves, as the admittedly non-biblical phrase has it.

10 August 2014 at 09:35  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Political organisations / websites like the Christian Institute demonstrate a recognition of that principle.

10 August 2014 at 09:37  
Blogger IanCad said...


No; I wasn't advocating suppression of his views; you should know me better than that. I was merely suggesting that there are lines which, if crossed, would warrant prosecution, and that the knowledge of such would be a curb on the excesses of his sympathizers.

10 August 2014 at 09:52  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

IanCad: "I was merely suggesting that there are lines which, if crossed, would warrant prosecution, and that the knowledge of such would be a curb on the excesses of his sympathizers."

It's an odd space where that falls. We want to allow people like that American preacher outside Wimbledon to do his stuff (proselytising?), albeit perhaps without the PA system, but stop people like those Muslims in Luton trying to disrupt the Remembrance ceremony (incitement or a public order offence?). We want to allow organisations like the Christian Institute and the Muslim Council of Britain to lobby for political changes within the system (political activism?), but stop people like some of these Saudi-backed political fronts working towards overthrowing the system completely (sedition?). It's not impossible by any means but it seems a bit like walking a tightrope to me!

10 August 2014 at 10:06  
Blogger Roy said...

@ Marie1797

Abu Mounisa may be against capitalism but that in itself is hardly treacherous. Millions of British people in the first half of the 20th century, and large numbers after WWII, were also against capitalism.

I am, however, rather surprised by Abu Mounisa's opposition to capitalism. Perhaps he has forgotten that Mohammed was a merchant!

10 August 2014 at 10:09  
Blogger JamesR said...

Yesterday I took my older son to Manchester University Museum. Before we even entered the building we were subjected to a banner that said "Manchester University supports Manchester (Gay) Pride". When we got in the reception desk had a Stonewall poster. Then in one of the first rooms we entered, there was an exhibit with a note stating that Christian Missionaries had stolen and confiscated items to bully people into becoming Christians. There was of course no such comment on present day Muslim bullying or the kind of bullying that we had already been subjected to by this "place of learning" before we even reached the exhibits.
Of course, Church of England" schools have long been open to a challenge under the Trades Descriptions Act (or at least would have been had it been a trade), and now Catholic schools are only Catholic in that they have Mass once a term. Who is actually going to go to university and challenge anything ?Very few have the understanding that they should have and virtually none of those will have the confidence to go with it.
Of course what is happening in Iraq is evil. That should be obvious. It must absolutely be stopped. Of course it should not take a brave person to stand out and say so. But it does.
But the two gentlemen who are referred to in the opening paragraph need to be aware of what is happening in their own country too. The odd alliance of liberal atheism and militant Islam is already destroying the souls of British people, particularly the young. Our bodies may be safe, for now at least, but our souls aren't. And those at the head of the churches don't seem to care.

10 August 2014 at 10:40  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


I think your last paragraph is unfair. I believe they care it is just that the press are uninterested in reporting on those issues so we hear less. I have read a couple of blogs on the God and Politics site that says that Justin Welby does care.

10 August 2014 at 10:57  
Blogger Len said...

It would seem that moral and ethical boundaries have become so blurred in our liberal society that we are unable to define evil anymore?

10 August 2014 at 11:09  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I have no doubt at all that what the Islamic State is doing is evil. It's evil on a scale of what the Nazis did to European Jews, or the slaughter of the Tutsis in Rwanda by the Hutus. One has an immediate visceral response to it, it doesn't need a textbook definition.

10 August 2014 at 11:20  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

I have no doubt at all that what the Islamic State is doing is evil

Not if you are a Muslim its not. It's doing exactly what Mohammad in all his madness is alleged to have done and held to be praiseworthy and appropriate behaviour for Muslims then, now and for ever.

10 August 2014 at 11:31  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Agreed it's a fact Christianity is on the wane - culturally as well as spiritually in the West. That doesn't mean we're in a better place or more *progressive* as a result.

This was Jack's salient point:" ... the concept of evil is being replaced with the godless notion that all the world's ills will be solved by *education* and by *tolerance* - if only we could shed religion dogma and free ourselves from ancient myths."

It's not a question of "a bunch of OT prophets berating" people, or "building on what we have and want rather than bleat about what used to be and is no longer wanted." It is about what works for society. It's more about stopping the movement away from the removal of the understanding of the Christian God from our institutions and daily lives.

What is it people want? More than anything a stable and ordered community where they can go about their daily business unhindered. The irony is the liberal is undermining that very prospect because he sees the world as a competition of ideas and a balancing of interests to maximise some nebulous notion of *happiness* ignoring what drives people. His worldview cannot compute evil and so he settles for moral relativism and has no ability to tell cause from effect, good from bad, or right from wrong.

10 August 2014 at 11:32  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Where are the 'Not in my name' demonstrations by outraged 'moderate' Muslims? - don't hold your breath!

10 August 2014 at 11:33  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Not sure if this is the best thread on which to say it, but I do distinguish between Islam and individual Muslims.

I have never read 'The Kite Runner', but I have seen the film; and what has always stuck in my mind is the poor guy trying to run an orphanage, despite having some of his charges removed by pederasts in authority.

My own belief is that such a person, doing his best within his social context in the light of God-given conscience, may well be among the Sheep in the parable of the Sheep and Goats.

True, he may not have consciously accepted Christ: but when did his circumstances provide him with the opportunity?

10 August 2014 at 11:40  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Aren't we all Liberal to an extent? Do we not all want to enjoy our civic freedoms? I for one don't want the state holding control over every aspect of my life. We are certainly not all secular liberals. Let's make sure we understand what it is we denigrate. If not a Liberal society what? I strongly don't want Christianity moved to the margins of national life any more then it has been, but it is only in a Liberal society could I argue this.

10 August 2014 at 11:46  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

JamesR “The odd alliance of liberal atheism and militant Islam is already destroying the souls of British people, particularly the young“

We have a liberal atheist on this site who although he condemns Islamic State, cannot bring himself to do similar with our own flowering Islam in the UK. Indeed, you’d think the two are completely different strains of the virus - one we could live with and one we couldn’t.

One entertains the view that he has decided it’s far too early to put Islam down in the UK, as must happen to any theistic faith according to liberal atheism, and that its adherents still have much to offer in further reducing the influence of Christianity in this long Christian country. Such is his loathing of the faith of his fathers, and ours.

A dangerous game, but he believes he’s clever enough to pull it off, or at least he thinks he is.

10 August 2014 at 11:49  
Blogger Maalaistollo said...

Your Grace

I had a look at the website of the Muslim Council of Britain to see what they have to say about the situation in Iraq. Having waded through all the stuff about Gaza I found a press release that appears to have been issued several weeks ago (before Ramadan) which states, inter alia, 'Whilst all of Iraq’s leaders have a case to answer for the deepening divisions — often violently — in this fragile state; the depth and scale of barbarity attributed to ISIS is particularly unconscionable and is to be repudiated. Its actions are turning Iraqis further against each other, increasing sectarianism and are the driver of Muslims killing one another.

The MCB urges all concerned parties to avoid inflammatory and sectarian language that may exacerbate tensions. At this time of difficulty and growing tensions in the Muslim world, we call on scholars, leaders and institutions from all traditions to stand firm against sectarianism and celebrate our unity.'

So that's all right then, the only problem is Muslims killing each other.

On another point, Canon White has asserted on more than one occasion that our Government will not take Iraqi Christian refugees. I've read the Home Office Operational Guidance Note on Iraq (which you can find on the internet). It was last updated in December 2013 so takes no account of the recent ISIS/IS advances. It is, however, clear that if an Iraqi Christian were to present themselves here to request asylum, under a proper application of the guidance in the light of the current situation it ought to be granted. Of course, having been despoiled of everything they have no means to get here. This, I suspect, is the point the Canon is seeking to make: our Government is not willing to consider rescuing them and bringing them here.

I've just written to my MP (Conservative, and I have even seen him in Church) to ask him for his understanding of the policy and, if it is against helping the Christians, whether he agrees with it. I'll let you know his response.

It must surely be worth making the effort to press our MPs on this issue, even if the institutional church prefers not to rock the boat. Our church had a retiring collection this morning for Gaza, but no collection for the Iraqi Christians.

10 August 2014 at 11:53  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...

It has been asked by a communicant on His Nib's twitter...Why has the evil not been named.

Because of fear of being deemed an islamophobe by the mere assertion that unfettered Islam is dangerous to us and even their own kind but please don't hold your breath expecting this rabble of a parliament to join the dots publicly for we voters...perish the thought.


10 August 2014 at 11:55  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Clive M

"Aren't we all Liberal to an extent? Do we not all want to enjoy our civic freedoms? I for one don't want the state holding control over every aspect of my life. We are certainly not all secular liberals."

You'll need to define the way you are using the term 'liberal'. There's a difference between freedom and liberalism. The irony is that it is the modern form of liberalism that is increasing the intrusion of the state - to ensure a 'market place' of ideas and to promote the 'rights' of 'protected groups' and secure their 'equality'.

10 August 2014 at 12:03  
Blogger The Explorer said...

I have been reading an American account about the Gaza tunnels. As well as explosives, they had handcuffs and syringes. It seems the plan was to kidnap Israeli civilians for use as human shields. The IDF would then be invited to kill their own people.

The report also suggested that ordinary Palestinians, protesting this sort of inhumanity - and their own potential use as human shields, if supplies of kidnapped Israelis ran short - had been killed by Hamas.

Who knows what voices have been raised within Islam, of which we have never heard?

10 August 2014 at 12:08  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Happy Jack

It is undoubtedly true that Governments have abused the principle of Liberalism. However we shouldn't allow that to blind us to how much our liberties are liberal ones.

On a separate issue when is the international community going to reward the Kurds for their efforts with their own nation?

I for one have been very impressed by their behaviour.

10 August 2014 at 12:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "It's more about stopping the movement away from the removal of the understanding of the Christian God from our institutions and daily lives."

Then make your case for it to our population and see where it gets you, if anywhere. Or encourage whoever you think you're backing to do so. Note: that's to our population, not me in particular, as I have no interest at all in what you personally think or say.

"What is it people want? More than anything a stable and ordered community where they can go about their daily business unhindered."

I spotted the "ordered" there.

10 August 2014 at 12:13  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "We have a liberal atheist on this site who although he condemns Islamic State, cannot bring himself to do similar with our own flowering Islam in the UK."

Well, we have an Islamist group who are deliberately using terror tactics as a military strategy by beheading children, burying people alive, crucifying people, shooting entire families in the face, and so on. On the other hand, we have the sort of Muslims I work with every day who like to socialise, who follow our laws, and who appear to like the UK as it is. Now, I personally don't like Islam at all, as it's contrary to much of what I believe myself, but I respect the right to freedom of belief, etc of our citizens. I must be a really terrible person to feel able to distinguish between the former set of Muslims and latter for the purposes of condemnation. What on earth is wrong with me?

10 August 2014 at 12:20  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ @ 12:03

Charles Krauthammer (marvellous name!) made a distinction between J S Mill liberalism and progressive liberalism.

Mill: truth emerges from an unfettered competition of ideas. (My own view of education exactly, and the line taken by St Paul in his discussions with the Athenian intelligentsia.)

Modern liberalism, by contrast "seeks to harness the power of government, the mystique of science and the rule of experts to shape both society and the individual."

Both termed 'liberal', and yet saying virtually opposite things.

10 August 2014 at 12:24  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Clive: "I for one have been very impressed by their behaviour."

They seem a plucky bunch. I'd like to know more about why they're held back, other than that it would piss Turkey off if they form an indepedent country and Turkey is an important NATO ally.

10 August 2014 at 12:26  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

DanJ0 Go on with you, you scally. I bet you even like the odd Christian you know personally too.

10 August 2014 at 12:28  
Blogger Nick said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 August 2014 at 12:29  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Clive and DanJ0:

A CNN report I read a few days ago suggested exactly that about Turkey.

The US is reluctant to supply the Kurds with weapons against IS because they might use them afterwards in forming an independent Kurdistan. (Which would also have implications for the US vision for Iraq.) Something also about links with Iran, but I couldn't really follow the argument, and by then I had got the gist of American reluctance.

10 August 2014 at 12:32  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


For the avoidance of doubt I am not keen on governments designing societies at all! Typically they make a mess of it. This is not the liberalism I meant.


As far as I can work out their is no other reason. Which considering its current line of travel with regards the increasing influence of political Islam will raise interesting questions in the future.

10 August 2014 at 12:33  
Blogger Nick said...

The prospect of the unholy war spreading to European countries is not hyperbole or rhetoric. It is now a fact. Take a look at this...

How many Lee Rigby's will it take for the our politicians to understand that these people are not part of our society, they have no place in our society, they should be kept out of our society (cancel their passports), because they seek nothing less than the extermination of all who don't share their beliefs, wherever they live. Multi-culturalism will save nobody.

10 August 2014 at 12:34  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Explorer: "Mill: truth emerges from an unfettered competition of ideas."

Hence the notion that these things need to be discussed calmly and openly in public, rather than merely reluctantly tolerated because people are afraid to challenge them. I have no doubt the overwhelming majority of our population would prefer Christianity to Islam, but given the choice of neither then they seem to go for that and get on with their lives. There is no injunction at all on Christians trying to sell their religion to the population. It's just that on the whole, people are not at all interested in buying it. In a marketplace of ideas, it isn't really very marketable anymore. Since you like analogies, I'm thinking more of medallion-patterned Axminster carpets which, although very durable, are passed over in favour of plain berbers and shallow shags.

10 August 2014 at 12:34  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "DanJ0 Go on with you, you scally. I bet you even like the odd Christian you know personally too."

Not at work, as it goes. Judgemental and self-righteous twonks, all of them. But obviously I recognise that's not universal. :)

10 August 2014 at 12:38  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

One sees what you’re saying DanJ0.

By the way, you might like this...

Two NAZI housewives were conversing over the garden fence. “Of course, I don’t like the Jews at all, but Mr Hitler has only gone and sent my Jewish dentist to a camp” “Same with me, and our Jewish doctor. He was such a nice Jew” “Oh, I know. They both were”

As the Inspector stated earlier, yours is a dangerous game, with more than its due share of hypocrisy involved.

10 August 2014 at 12:42  
Blogger The Explorer said...

DanJ0 @ 12:34

Thanks for the analogy.

Enjoyed the humour.

10 August 2014 at 12:55  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

DanJ0, the Inspector can be rather forgetful at times. Can you remind him what happened when you came out as homosexual to your muslim work colleagues. Did they really try to hang you from the fire escape, or merely spent the rest of the day talking about wanting to...

10 August 2014 at 12:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Explorer: "Enjoyed the humour."

Heh, I was going to overplay it but managed to hold back.

10 August 2014 at 13:00  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

"I'm thinking more of medallion-patterned Axminster carpets which, although very durable, are passed over in favour of plain berbers and shallow shags."

Tsk, tsk - people are moving away from plain berbers and shallow shags these days too. The choice is now between laminate flooring and genuine wood floors. Choice being limited by finance as well as taste. Do keep up with the advertisers who form and then reform people's desires - in the market place.

10 August 2014 at 13:10  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I can hardly bear to read some of the stories being told now about the situation in Iraq. I've just read one that's made me feel physically sick. The world really needs to come together and systematically kill these barbarians. They should have no place on earth.

10 August 2014 at 13:15  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

So much for the humour. :rolleyes:

10 August 2014 at 13:16  
Blogger IanCad said...

Explorer, DanJO

"Mill: truth emerges from an unfettered competition of ideas."

I have to say, this is one of his more dopey statements.
He obviously spent far too much time indoors.

10 August 2014 at 13:16  
Blogger Len said...

'Liberalism' has been bought at the cost of two world wars and millions of lives.
'liberalism' has within its philosophy the seeds of its own destruction as we are already beginning to experience.
So much was gained and so much is being squandered on an experiment the outcome is only too predictable because it is a recurring pattern in civilization.
Man it seems cannot learn from history..If Hitler had studied Napoleon he would not have attacked Russia when he did for example...
However although all the evidence is there man its seems cannot learn from examining it.
In the times of Noah and Lot, there was the idolatry of greed, there was sexual perversion and promiscuity, there was anarchy and violence, and finally there was judgment. Throughout the history of the nation of Israel there was idolatry, sexual perversion, anarchy (in which each person did what was right in his own eyes), and finally judgment.
This progression happened throughout the Bible and to Greece, to Persia, to Babylon, and to Rome. And if it happened to these nations, then it can and probably will happen today.

10 August 2014 at 13:17  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

DanJ0, physically sick? You should read about what your pals did to Drummer Rigby...

10 August 2014 at 13:21  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


As I said if not a liberal society what? Can a faith filled society not also be a liberal one? Or are you suggesting a Christian version of a caliphate? Please define what your alternative would be? What would the rule of law be based on?

10 August 2014 at 13:25  
Blogger David Hussell said...

It strikes me ever more forcibly that the west needs to go with the grain of reality, adopting a mixture of pragmatism and realistic idealism by assisting the Kurds, the only viable, reasonable, humane and genuinely united, cohesive group, possessing an identity rooted in territory and ages old customs.

I cannot but admire their plucky stand and generous offer of sanctuary to those who have been cruelly displaced. But I recognise that the escapees are the lucky ones, as pity help those trapped behind for whatever reasons.

Turkey may feel most uncomfortable over this equipping of their restive neighbours, so there will be huffings and puffings, and maybe worse, but would they prefer the Kurds or Isis as neighbours ? That's the reality they need to ask themselves, and without delay as well. With their existing neighbours they can negotiate, but with their potential ones, only kill or be killed is understood. To use the street vernacular, it's a no-brainer !

Because of our intervention, great is the responsibility of the US, the UK and Nato. What pearls of wisdom have we heard from the EU ? None I am glad to say. Ultimately power and authority can only flow from individual nation states, cooperating maybe, but each directly responsible to its electorate.

God help the minorities in that land now under the grip of barbarians, a land which was once the cradle of early civilisations, so the irony is indeed striking. Our thanks must flow to both Archbishop Welby and Cardinal Nichols for speaking out clearly with impeccable timing. Do I sense a most necessary co-ordination ?

10 August 2014 at 13:26  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector: "DanJ0, physically sick? You should read about what your pals did to Drummer Rigby..."

Oh for goodness'sake, you absurd little man. What's the point of that? I know it's Sunday and this is what you do but this is a serious thread here.

10 August 2014 at 13:34  
Blogger IanCad said...

As usual David Hussell a well thought out comment.

Turkey does have a bit of a problem with the Kurds but maybe that's largely passed for now.
Very significant that one of the Turkish presidential candidates is a Kurd.
No one could even have imagined that four years ago.

Let me add - I know I keep banging on about this - that the Iranians can't be ignored.
They are by far the biggest players in the region.
Never been occupied by a Western power either.

10 August 2014 at 13:38  
Blogger Roy said...

I am surprised that almost nobody who has responded to my comment about the conversion of Moslems in this country. The sole exception so far is Marie1797 who thought that it would not work because the Moslems are also trying to convert us.

That reaction, or the lack of it, is hardly a vote of confidence in the Gospel or the work of the Holy Spirit. It seems that most commentators on this blog agree with DanJO that Christianity has had its day.

10 August 2014 at 14:03  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


"Mill: truth emerges from an unfettered competition of ideas. (My own view of education exactly, and the line taken by St Paul in his discussions with the Athenian intelligentsia.)"

Jack thinks St Paul may have had something else in mind and he was addressing an audience that was deistic and/or polytheistic and had a grasp on metaphysics.

Do you think St Paul and Mills had a shared view on the nature of human beings?

As far as Jack can determine, liberalism is founded on assumptions of rational
decision making and a free and open exchange of ideas. Truth is discovered through competition with falsehood and imposed truth is has the danger of error. John Stuart Mill argued that repression may interfere with the market's ability to seek truth. Censored opinion may contains truth so its silencing lessens the chance of our discovering that truth. If conflicting opinions each contain part of the truth, the clash between them is the only method of unearthing the whole truth. And, even if the censored view is false and prevailing opinion true, challenging the accepted opinion must be allowed if people are to hold that accepted view as something other than dogma and prejudice because if they do not, its meaning will be lost
or weakened.

If religious beliefs are considered to be simply ideas, this marketplace of ideas concept holds and favours a competition between religions and atheism - the false will be beaten. But this isn't what's going on. Just how are ideas 'produced' and passed on for 'consumption' and how is evidence presented? And do we really have freedom of speech and expression?

10 August 2014 at 14:07  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


I certainly do not agree that Christianity has had its day. I think I have said as much in earlier comments. I believe it is Islam that has had its day and what we see in the Middle East is part of this.
It is to be hoped that this evidence before us on the TV and elsewhere will persuade many Muslims to look more closely into the claims of the Bible.

10 August 2014 at 14:09  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Ian C @ 13:16

Mill's view leads to a theory of education where the educator's responsibility is to raise students' ability to think, not hand them the correct opinions.

The alternative liberalism leads to this real-life example from an American school.

Transgendered spokespersons come in and lecture the kids. The kids are then given an English assignment: write a speech in favour of being transgendered. Note, they are not given the option of responding negatively.

The kids are being socially engineered to accept transgendering in a positive light. Making up their own minds on the issue doesn't come into it.

10 August 2014 at 14:19  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ @ 14:07:

Quite a post there!

I'd rather have Mill's liberalism than modern liberalism, but I'd rather have St Paul than Mill. As you say, one's view of the nature of human beings is not insignificant!

I suppose a Mill type would argue that acceptance or rejection of Christianity is based on rational evidence.

A St Paul type would argue that the will is involved as well. Because we are rebels in our natural state, the evidence may have nothing to do with it. Rejection may have much to do with the heart, and little to do with the head.

Bertrand Russell hoped that man was a rational animal. I don't believe either bit of that definition.

10 August 2014 at 14:31  
Blogger The Explorer said...

That is to say, if man is an animal, man is not ONLY an animal.

Man may have rational faculties, but it is not rationality that drives him.

10 August 2014 at 14:38  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Explorer: "Quite a post there!"

The original, ever so slightly modified, is here:

Page 6 immediately under the Classic Marketplace Theory section.

10 August 2014 at 14:41  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

HJ & Explorer

I think Churchill's observation that democracy is a poor form of government it just happens to be the best on offer, applies to my views on the liberal society. It has it's flaws, just fewer then the alternatives.

10 August 2014 at 14:52  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ Ivan (03:16)—Unlike their robust forefathers, today’s Anglicans (and all Western Christians) have to tread carefully through the minefield of isms and phobias. Anti-Semitism, racism and Islamophobia await the opportunity to pounce, shame and destroy. Given that the churches have provided, and still provide, the imprimatur for mass immigration and multiculturalism, it is at times difficult to resist a titter at the godawful pickle in which they have landed themselves.

10 August 2014 at 14:52  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Johnny R:

The churches may have set the tone for the treatment of newly-arrived immigrants, but I doubt vey much whether they had any influence on the thinking of those who decided our immigration policies in the first place.

Useful idiots, yes; enablers, no.

10 August 2014 at 14:58  
Blogger IanCad said...


Except for your prompting, I would have missed your post.
Definitely deserves a response.

There does seem to be a perception that the mission field has to be overseas.

Darkest Africa and all that, where, in truth, the grossest darkness may be in our own land.
The very fabric of our country was built upon the light of the gospel.

How well understood - or otherwise - the testimonies to this faith stand in stone all over our land.

To once have light and then to reject it. To put our hand to the plough and turn back bodes ill for the fortunes of our country.

The Gospel is simple, the mass of men are too enamoured with sophistication and cleverness to hearken to the message that once led our land, for all its faults, to be a beacon of hope in a cruel world.

10 August 2014 at 15:11  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

DanJ0. “Oh for goodness'sake, you absurd little man. What's the point of that? I know it's Sunday and this is what you do but this is a serious thread here.”

Indeed, you truth thief, the seriousness of this thread need not be raised. Notwithstanding your weakness to aim a passing kick at Christianity whenever the opportunity presents itself..

“Not at work, as it goes. Judgemental and self-righteous twonks, all of them. But obviously I recognise that's not universal. :)”

12:38 wasn’t it ?

10 August 2014 at 15:26  
Blogger IanCad said...

"Mill's view leads to a theory of education where the educator's responsibility is to raise students' ability to think, not hand them the correct opinions."

I really do wonder as to how beneficial that actually may be.
Thinking is largely based on observation, reading and upbringing.

It makes it tough for students to form any opinions when they have been raised on a regime of mindless TV, No meaningful reading and superficial parenting.

10 August 2014 at 15:40  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Inspector, you're just after a mano a mano fight as usual for reasons that have nothing to do with the topic and everything to do with the person. You're one of a very small group that has been doing it for years now, and it bewilders me what you get out of it after all this time. You must have a very empty life indeed, is all I can think of it really.

10 August 2014 at 15:42  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

IanCad: "It makes it tough for students to form any opinions when they have been raised on a regime of mindless TV, No meaningful reading and superficial parenting."

Unfortunately, due to targets and league tables it seems to be quite common now for school to teach pupils how to pass exams instead so reasoning has taken a bit of a back seat anyway.

10 August 2014 at 15:46  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


But is it an accurate summary? That's the point. And what answers do you have against its flaws? Do tell in this market [lace of a rational exchange of ideas.

Is liberalism based on an assumption of a rational man making calculated decisions that will SOMEHOW maximise 'happiness' of the greatest number? Where is the evidence for this? And is there, can there ever be, a free and open exchange of ideas - notwithstanding the ever watchful ECHR with (qualified) 'protected status' for some ideas, the active promotion of 'equality' and the clamping down on 'discrimination'?

Clive M

Churchill's wry observation, in full, was:

"Many forms of Gov­ern­ment have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pre­tends that democ­racy is per­fect or all-wise." (Well some do, it seems)"Indeed it has been said that democ­racy is the worst form of Gov­ern­ment except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

Note the moral underpinning; not quite support for the liberal who puts his faith in rationality. And he believed in representative democracy - with leaders with moral fibre.

Jack prefers this observation of Churchill:

"How is that word “democ­racy” to be inter­preted? My idea of it is that the plain, hum­ble, common man, just the ordi­nary man who keeps a wife and fam­ily, who goes off to fight for his coun­try when it is in trou­ble, goes to the poll at the appro­pri­ate time, and puts his cross on the bal­lot paper show­ing the can­di­date he wishes to be elected to Parliament — that he is the foun­da­tion of democ­racy.”

Jack doubts very much Churchill would see this plain, hum­ble, common man, providing for his wife and fam­ily and willing to fight for his coun­try, as being promoted by modern liberalism and its intrusion into everyday life.

10 August 2014 at 15:49  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Ian C @ 15:4

I am not proposing Mill's liberalism or progressive liberalism as the only two educational options on the table: I am simply pointing out that although they are both called 'liberal' they lead in very different directions.

Obviously, one's beliefs will influence one's views about the purpose of education.

A Christian who believes in the soul, and the nurturing of individual God-given talents, will - allowed a free reign - come up with a very different programme from that of a behaviourist like Skinner.

But we're getting away from the topic of the thread. Time to close down this particular discussion.

10 August 2014 at 16:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, the original text is fine by itself and I suggest people read that instead. If you want to try to pass Professor Ingber's words off as your own so that it appears that you know the subject then that's up to you I suppose. It's not as though this is a university where such plagiarism would result in you being thrown out. But anyway, the original argument suffers from a flaw. I'll leave you to google around to find someone who identifies it. For the rest, I'm not interested in another of those pointless exchanges with you.

10 August 2014 at 16:02  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

DanJ0. “you're just after a mano a mano fight as usual for reasons that have nothing to do with the topic and everything to do with the person “

Not at all. Merely making points at your obvious expense. Don’t be so annoyed, but by all means be annoyed.

10 August 2014 at 16:29  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Happy Jack

Churchill had many wry observations. However I think you are muddling up the perversion of liberalism espoused by our politicians with the real thing. I don't see the attempted social engineering as liberal. I do however see the tolerance for minorities (provide they behave within certain boundaries) as liberal and necessary. The problem is now a days toleration isn't enough, now we are told to imitate. Very illiberal.

10 August 2014 at 16:31  
Blogger Len said...

Well all that having been said how does a liberal government deal with those who will not play with their rules?.

10 August 2014 at 16:50  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

IanCad 9:12

I agree the Sedition Acts should be used today and quickly, with new laws of Sedition for non aliens made PDQ. You're absolutely right they see tolerance as the green light to continue spreading the sharia. I'm suspicious of any muslim in this country agitating for political changes. They and what they are seeking should be put under the microscope.

Those funding ISIS and other violent strains of Islam should be banned from Britain. The likes of Prince Bandar Bin Sultan, in fact the whole bloody lot of powerful Saudis that go around the world bullying and throwing their weight around should be banned from the UK and its services. No flying out their favourite whores and whiskey. Oh! Yes they're hypocrites.

The media,Ch 4 who enjoy being controversial, could host a TV debate with Abu Mounisa and someone from the opposing side. Trouble is though we are so far gone down the self destructive pit of diversity, equality, liberalism, and politically correct nonsense, we'd probably end up agreeing with him and capitulating instead of seeing him off.

10 August 2014 at 16:54  
Blogger Marie1797 said...


It's sad that the Christians here mainly all think Christianity has had its day, what hope is there then if all these highly educated, intelligent, clever, sharp minded, caring people, and they are mostly Church people too are so downbeat, disheartened and defeatist?

There's Party in the Park, and summer music festivals around the country, how about Prayers in the Park, and summer hymn festivals around the country. Look how successful the Proms are and Proms in the Park is. It's really lovely. Church leaders need to tap into the inspiration of the Holy Spirit.

10 August 2014 at 16:55  
Blogger The Explorer said...


Two reasons I can think of for reluctance re Muslims in Britain.

1. The hard time given to Islamic apostates. Don't know if males in Britain would suffer actual death - certainly social ostracism - but I believe Muslim women who have tried to leave have died. (Or so some Christian lawyer said on 'The Big Questions'; and I have no reason to doubt her. That's quite a responsibility.

2. The possibility of being guilty of a hate crime for suggesting one religion might be truer than another. (One's actual words might not be the same as one's reported words). Risk of losing job etc.

10 August 2014 at 17:19  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


It demonstrates a certain weakness in the liberal philosophy to be unwilling to publically discuss the flaws in the basic premises of a philosophy one espouses and holds in such high regard.

What about this market place where discourse between conflicting opinions might each contain part of the truth and the clash between them unearths the whole truth.

If not for Jack, do think of the eponymous "silent reader" you care so greatly for.

As the original post says:

"The evil pattern which is emerging around the world must be routed and disordered ... This is the repressive and brutal evil which confronts us."

Do utilitarian liberals believe good and evil actually exist apart from behaviour that promotes happiness or harm and, if so, where do they consider their roots lie?

This is the theme of the thread.

Clive M

"I do however see the tolerance for minorities (provide they behave within certain boundaries) as liberal and necessary."

Agreed - but being respectful or accepting behaviour or opinions different from one’s own, isn't the political creed of Utilitarian Liberalism that Jack was referring to.

10 August 2014 at 17:46  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo: "It demonstrates a certain weakness in the liberal philosophy to be unwilling to publically discuss the flaws in the basic premises of a philosophy one espouses and holds in such high regard."

I am unwilling to repeatedly discuss the same two topics with you over and over and over and over again when I know exactly what you're going to say and where it will always lead to each time. You'll introduce morality into it (tick), then you'll claim a role for the state, then it'll move onto sexual conduct including bestiality and paedophilia, then it will arrive at homosexuality of course (which is your real goal), then you will bring the Roman Catholic position into it, and finally you'll talk about homosexual perversion (hinting at a link with paedophilia) and being disordered because you think that term annoys me. I don't need to spend days going through that with you yet again like I'm in an Internet version of Groundhog Day. If you have things to say then feel free to say them without me, or referring to me, or trying to goad a response out of me by italising terms I use. But no, you won't of course because it's not the topic at all but the interaction with me you crave. No thanks. So jog on.

10 August 2014 at 17:58  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I forgot to mention that you'll also 'misunderstand' the topic, misrepresent my position, segue my comments into something they're not, and deliberately misquote me. You've even started already with "utilitarian liberals" as though that's my position, despite my correcting you a number of times on that in the past, because you want to link John Stuart Mill's On Liberty with Utilitarianism for your own purposes. It's tedious in the extreme and I have already told you on this thread, as on many others, that I don't care a hoot what you say or think.

10 August 2014 at 18:05  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Nonsense. It was a simple question and Jack has no interest at all in discussing sexual morality with you. The issue is Islam and whether it is evil and how it can properly be controlled.

Happy Jack does not recall having ever asked:

Do utilitarian liberals believe good and evil actually exist apart from behaviour that promotes happiness or harm and, if so, where do they consider their roots lie?

10 August 2014 at 18:10  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Dodo, reread the last line. How hard is that to understand. There's nothing you have to say that interests me. You're just a Google Savant as you have demonstrated earlier on the thread. I tell you regularly that I have no interest in interacting with you yet you constantly follow me around, pestering me for attention as you have done for bloody years. You're psychologically damaged. Get help for Christ'sake.

10 August 2014 at 18:17  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

DanJo, while Christianity is in deep trouble in Europe, the secular liberal intelligentsia is on palliative care without even a miracle in sight. If I had to put money on either, I'd put it on Christianity.

As in the US and Canada, where mainstream Churches are ailing, Christians are quietly building smaller, independent communities. They have two advantages over the liberals; demographics, where conservative religious people simply have more children in mentally and socially healthier, more stable family environments, and in the area of economics, where a culture of work, intra-family and in-group cooperation and thrift predominate.

The liberal sector on the other hand lacks self-repairing strategies. It's not making enough kids to replace its numbers, has made the dysfunctional family intgo the new cool and has no funds or inducements to attract quality recruits; ideology, brow-beating and legislative moves won'rt put fooid on the table. Its core ideological, cultural and financial sources are the liberal arts sectors in the universities, the arts, publishing, mainstream media and unions. Alas, all of these are teetering on the edge of collapse unable to offer much apart from strident equity and social justice propaganda, which is why modern liberalism looks to the government for salvation through imposing more restrictions in citizens' liberties and more plundering of private enterprise. That's why Carl's Russia example is apt; it's the principle of SSDD...same shit, different day.

10 August 2014 at 18:30  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Avi: "DanJo, while Christianity is in deep trouble in Europe, the secular liberal intelligentsia is on palliative care without even a miracle in sight. If I had to put money on either, I'd put it on Christianity."

Well, that's cool. There's no need for anyone in the UK to worry or bother about it. Stand down everyone!

10 August 2014 at 18:35  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


there are two positions here. One is I look at something I disapprove of, argue against it, but leave people with the right to choose. The other is seeing a position you believe to be right and force people to conform to it and penalise if they don't. The first is my position (within reason) underwritten by the rule of law, with justice being open to all. A liberal society. The second position is an elective dictatorship.
Hope I'm clear! I think the first needs to be defended and supported. Although in an increasingly imperfect way, this is the position in the Uk.
I will sadly admit this is under threat, mainly by the left.

10 August 2014 at 18:47  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Clive Mitchell, you noticed, hmm? Pretty fast for a newbie on the site; took me much longer than you. I'm guessing you're a lawyer or an engineer.

10 August 2014 at 19:08  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

10 August 2014 at 19:17  
Blogger Len said...

Seems like a 'liberal' society can only work if everyone is moving in the same direction?.
As we live in multi cultural multi racial(am I still allowed to say that?)society what we need is a rule of law and ethics something possibly written in stone that we can all agree on?.

10 August 2014 at 19:20  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Abu ?


10 August 2014 at 19:23  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


Big apologies damn spell checker!

10 August 2014 at 19:24  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


You asked the pertinent question:

"Well all that having been said how does a liberal government deal with those who will not play with their rules?"


With great and difficulty.

There is an inherent tension within liberalism. Between its more libertarian position - preventing an individual by their actions from harming others and its more interventionist position - restricting liberty if actions are deemed to cause unhappiness or are harmful to the 'rights' of others in less direct ways.

Obviously, murdering somebody because of one's faith can be easily answered. Its clearly harmful and leads to their unhappiness. However, addressing the religious 'idea' behind it, one among many in a free market place, and the less direct harm and unhappiness it might cause is more problematic.

That's why terrorism and genocide can be roundly condemned but not the faith system from which it springs - the government would have the ECHR on its case.

10 August 2014 at 19:26  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

You would have to highlight it just as I was about to delete. I have gone red big time!

10 August 2014 at 19:26  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

You're a natural wit Clive...

heh heh

10 August 2014 at 19:31  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...


Corrected. I am so embarrassed!

Neither! Although I work a lot with contracts and engineers, maybe something has rubbed off!

10 August 2014 at 19:33  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Hmmm I think I have said enough!

10 August 2014 at 19:34  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Why is there is so much negativity abroad ? I do urge that we stop and look at the facts on the ground ! There is huge energy in the more vibrant expressions of Christianity, but Joe Public never hears about it. Why ? Because the MS media does not see it and does not want to report it. According to their world view it shouldn't be happening in post-Christian 2014 Britain, and all that psuedo-liberal twaddle that they peddle and believe themselves. So they say to themselves, "it isn't there, it simply isn't happening", and they only report on the the weird, or the embarrassing, or the internal spats. Many in the MS media are a sad, self-doubting, anguished bunch. And what a twisted lot ! So let's not be duped by the standard line that the "liberal" press purvey, as it's merely reflects their personal absence or loss of faith, which many of them wear as a badge of honour, for career purposes, as the shoal-like little fishes that many of them are. Outspoken fearless champions of freedom, free speech and truth they are - not! And so armed or should I say disarmed, with their often useless, relativist word views, complete with whimpering assumptions regarding the trajectory of their own society, itself largely constructed by their usually, vaguely Christian forbears, they propagate their misery and self doubt. I suggest that we do not allow ourselves unwittingly to become their willing accomplices, companions on their downward journey, of so called false "liberal" doubt, which is not truly liberal at all of course, as we all know. It certainly does not offer any philosophically stable, defensible position for society to occupy for many generations.

Undiluted straight forward Christianity is bubbling up in informal "Pop-Up" churches in schools and warehouses every w/end, and in the more Bible based sections of the generally dowdy, aged mainstream denominations. Reform a little reported part of the C of E grows steadily using a biblically faithful, informal version, yet still easily recognisable to someone like me, raised in a traditional setting, as authentic anglicanism, indeed it follows intellectually robust reformation theology anglicanism. Generalising now, but the pop up churches, which are immensely varied, tend to have strong support from a more working class group, and that is how they often see their mission; whilst the more learned, but still informal service style, Reform, attracts the middle classes. They also possess the extra resources to provide a range of service styles from the early morning sedate, traditional to the later, distinctly lively, but all are backed by superb sermons, and thus they are able to span a huge demographic range successfully.

All over the country Summer Camps are full of happy, normal kids from stable families headed by committed Christian mums and dads, many of them using precious annual leave to generously staff those events, cook meals, lead discussion groups and just be around to help. Good on them !

And that is just in one little country, where admittedly the lukewarm have often dropped out of regular church attendance, but where the committed keep growing in numbers, steadily. Indeed globally, the expansion of the Christian faith is of staggering proportions.

A suggestion, if I may. Perhaps it is time for those of a defeatist ilk to get out a little more, even if it's only by surfing the world wide web ?

There's huge dynamism and vibrancy within many parts of the varying, worldwide universal Church, and all the living, growing bits are identifiably orthodox in their theologies. Theirs is the future.

10 August 2014 at 20:21  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ The Explorer (14:58)—The C of E, having had a good war, was highly influential well into the 1950s. Although it had no political power as such, it could have reflected the mood of the times by preaching against Third World immigration and forcing a rethink on government. Instead, the Church gave its blessing to immigration, dreamt up the sin of racism to shame dissenters into silence, and nags its poor congregations into celebrating the very diversity that, in this instance, prevents the Archbishop of Canterbury from telling the truth about Islam for fear of his churches going up in flames. You’d need a heart of stone not to laugh.

10 August 2014 at 20:49  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Article just popped up on Telegraph website, describing how the Isis advance has been halted by US jets destroying their vehicles, captured from the panicked Iraqi "army', allowing the Kurds to back-fill the vacuum. But it's just a start if the west is being serious about retaking the areas lost to civilisation, which we must. The Pershmerga are understandably jubilant. So the darkness is pushed back a little.

10 August 2014 at 20:58  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

“Racism”. Damn odd beast Johnny R...

In the Jamaican rich town of Gloucester (qv Gloucester riots 2011), the Inspector avoids contact with our coloured friends as much as is possible. So do his fellows. Now, because the Inspector freely admits to this avoidance, he’s the racist. Apparently, if you avoid contact in a similar fashion, but don’t mention the fact, you’re not a racist.

Hang me if you can work that one out...

10 August 2014 at 22:14  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

...and another thing.

The English language lacks a single descriptive word to describe a healthy and informed appreciation of the differences in the races. Attitude and practices - that sort of thing. You can’t use ‘racist’ or ‘racial’ because all the definitions imply some superiority between one race and others. Which is a bloody nuisance when you know that Abdullah a few streets away is looking forward to his daughters seventh birthday so he can hack bits off her genitals with the family’s ceremonial razor blade. Thus it’s damn difficult NOT to feel superior to the blighter.

10 August 2014 at 22:43  
Blogger Marie1797 said...


What do you make of this?

The Swedes are now going to take the word race out of legislation.

10 August 2014 at 23:22  
Blogger Avi Barzel said...

Avi...Corrected. I am so embarrassed! (Clive re "Abu" as Avi)

Ha ha ha ha! Think nothing of it...although you might want Homeland Security to take a closer look at your spell checker's pre-programmed choices. Shocked, though, upon realizing for the first time that "Abu" might be the Arabic version of "Avi"! It was certainly worth cheering the Inspector up.

10 August 2014 at 23:38  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Marie, if it goes ahead it will be both extraordinary and disastrous...

Extraordinary in that all Swedish citizens will now be treated the same. Disastrous in that defence lawyers will no longer be able to play the race card.

10 August 2014 at 23:39  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Avi, the Inspector has now recovered. We won’t mention the small leak of urine that occurred {AHEM}

10 August 2014 at 23:41  
Blogger Marie1797 said...

I think it's a grave mistake. It assumes the medieval middle eastern mindset is the same as that of the western civilised Christian cultured one when it clearly is not.
Temperaments, behaviour, thought patterns, are all different between the two.

The Swedish professors need to have a rethink on this.

11 August 2014 at 00:31  
Blogger Johnny Rottenborough said...

@ IGiO (22:14)—As God made us ethnocentric, favouring one’s own race is wholly natural and was wholly unremarkable until it was decided to effect population change in white countries and ethnocentricity became the great crime of racism, a stick with which to beat whites into submission. It’s bad enough that politicians and the media have managed (very successfully, all credit to them) to make us feel guilty about a trait it is not in our power to alter but when the churches join in as well and declare a God-given trait to be a sin, it’s as though the world has turned upside down.

@ IGiO (22:43)—Multiculturalism makes Abdullah your undoubted equal, Inspector. Mark Steyn explains why the nation-wrecking fraternity adores multiculturalism:

The great strength of ‘multiculturalism’ is not that it’s an argument against the West but that it short-circuits the possibility of argument. If there’s no difference between English Common Law and native healing circles and Tamil Tiger fundraisers and gay marriage and sharia, then what’s to discuss? Even to want to debate the merits is to find oneself on the wrong side—for, if the core belief of multiculturalism is that there’s nothing to discuss and everything’s equally nice and fluffy, then to favour honest argument puts you, by definition, on the extremist side.

11 August 2014 at 01:09  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


"As God made us ethnocentric, favouring one’s own race is wholly natural ..."


Must have missed that in Sunday School. There are a lot of things that are "natural". Sure, God made the nations but could you direct me to the passages where ethnocentrism is positively endorsed?

All men and women are made in the image of God.
(Genesis 1:26-27, 9:6),

God does not show partiality.
(Deuteronomy 10:17; Acts 10:34)

Jesus by His death “purchased men for God from every tribe and language and people and nation” (Revelation 5:9).

The Israelites were ethnocentric by virtue of being God’s chosen people. His choice was not based on their merit, but on His mercy and grace. Paul bears this out by saying, “There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male nor female, for you are all one in Christ Jesus.”
(Galatians 3:28)

11 August 2014 at 01:48  
Blogger Ivan said...

Johnny @14:52 I am more or less on the same page as you. Further to your observations I have to respect the breathtaking chutzpah of those who accuse the Europeans of antisemitism, when it is the Muslims in Europe, whom they are otherwise allied with, who are responsible for the sum of it. The people who make it impossible for Jews in Amsterdam to wear their kippahs, or driving them out of Marseilles are not the white neo-nazis. It suits the purposes of certain quarters, for their varied agenda, to keep the Europeans as guilt-ridden as possible. Once one comes to that kind of realisation, the only solution is simply to cut through the Gordian knot.

11 August 2014 at 02:00  
Blogger Happy Jack said...


Jack is unclear about what you are saying.

Who are "those who accuse the Europeans of anti-Semitism" whilst being, and in what sense, "otherwise allied" with Muslims?

11 August 2014 at 02:46  
Blogger Ivan said...

HJ, allied in the sense that they benefit from the supineness of the Europeans. They don't have to like each other, or pat each other as hombres and may even hate. This includes various Jewish entities, Muslim organisations, Hindoo hypocrites, homosexuals, Protestant Jesus freaks who live in the past, the broad spectrum of the left. In fact all the Lilliputians who keep the giant down :-)

11 August 2014 at 04:41  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ @ 02:46

The European Monitoring Centre on Racism and Xenophobia, noticing a rise in anti-Semitic incidents, commissioned Jewish authors to write a report.

The authors concluded that the main reason for rising anti-Semitism was Muslim youths, not skinheads or neo-fascists.

The EMCR told the authors that this would undermine the EMCR's work with Muslims, and told them to rewrite it portraying the main perpetrators as white racists.

The authors said this was contrary to the evidence, so the EMCR doctored the report and published it with a summary and conclusion at odds with the drift of the remaining evidence,

At the press conference the EMCR blamed white racists.

Source: Anthony Browne 'The Retreat of Reason'

11 August 2014 at 06:53  
Blogger Len said...

One thing that cannot be ignored is that radical Islam is a threat to everyone Christians Jews atheists and Muslims.
But where are the moderate Islamic voices condemning Islamic terrorism do they fear their violent brothers?.
The barbarism of groups like Boko Haram and IS are exposing the true nature of Islamic terrorism and it has the potential to spread like a virus unless confronted with determination and cooperation between civilized nations.

For the UK to supply aid is a start but nowhere near far enough it seems only air strikes show the sort of determination that terrorists respect.

It would seem that everytime an Islamic terrorist group starts to form and start killing it must be confronted and not left to grow stronger.I thought the UN was supposed to have some sort of role in this?. Apparently not?.

11 August 2014 at 10:01  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Dear DanJ0, I don't believe for one minute that you favour shallow shags...

11 August 2014 at 10:02  
Blogger Rambling Steve Appleseed said...

Clifford Longleynon phwoart for the day this morning Radio 4 quarter to 8.

The IS does not represent a return to authentic Islam.. 99.999% of Muslims disapprove of their actions.

Sheik Taquiyah bin Hudna of the Dhimmis Against Islamophobia Foundation would be proud of him.

I haven't felt so reassured since Gordon 'Prudence' Brown said he would borrow responsibly and it would all be repaid by the proceeds of growth.

11 August 2014 at 10:02  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Mrs P: "Dear DanJ0, I don't believe for one minute that you favour shallow shags..."

Well, quite. But I'm quite partial to an attractive berber. From my time in Morocco, I expect.

11 August 2014 at 10:10  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Rambling Steve @ 10:02

Phwoart for the Day about sums it up.

11 August 2014 at 10:14  
Blogger The Explorer said...

What's your preference, Mrs Proudie?

11 August 2014 at 10:15  
Blogger Mrs Proudie of Barchester said...

Goodness, Dear DanJ0, I can see you are a fellow of exotic tastes. My preference, dear Mr. Explorer? Well, a sturdy Afghan is always acceptable for general rough and tumble in the corridors, but I would usually plump for an Axminster (which has a clerical suffix). Mr Slope prefers the Turkmen...

11 August 2014 at 11:06  
Blogger IanCad said...

Mrs Proudie,

Profoundly off-thread but absolutely brilliant.

11 August 2014 at 11:09  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

A few years back I had an argument with a friend about the true nature of Islam. I related the story of the massacre of a Jewish town by Islamic armies led by the non-prophet. Every man and boy murdered ( I can no longer remember the towns name).
His response? We can't judge, look what the Crusaders did. Even when pressed he was incapable of understanding the fundamental difference, that being the slaughter was led by the faiths founder and that by his own words and actions the massacre of innocents is condoned and encouraged. This cannot be said of Jesus.
I can believe that many Muslims are appalled by what is happening. The Kurds are Moslem and for a long time the only ones helping the Christians and others.
What is unforgivable is that instead of condemning the brutal, savage, vile behaviour of IS, British Moslem representatives give us a lecture warning of Islamophobia and by doing so seeming to suggest that the two are comparable.

11 August 2014 at 11:18  
Blogger E.xtra S.ensory Blofeld + Tiddles said...


Think you will find lad, that OT makes it crystal clear that any alien/migrant in your midst MUST be friendly to you or be dispelled abroad. Those that agree and want to live amongst you are to be treated as EQUALS.

What JR maybe implying is similar to loving your own first as anything else makes you as bad as the infidel.


11 August 2014 at 11:19  

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