Sunday, August 31, 2014

“I have forgiven the Islamic militants, because they did not know what they are doing”



Some images are just too awful to publish. It would be easy to scour the internet to find pictures of headless Christian children in Nigeria, summarily slaughtered by Boko Haram for no other reason than that they were not Muslim. Thousands have been and are being tortured and murdered, but our attention has been deflected by the horrors of Syria and Iraq and the rise of the Islamic State. It's rising in northern Nigeria, too. Whatever happened to 'Bring Back Our Girls'?

The Voice of the Martyrs reports the beheading of a six-year-old boy:
Over 100 militants dressed in military uniforms swarmed the predominantly Christian village just as Sunday church services were beginning on June 1. The rebels opened fire on the village and went after people with their machetes. 55-year-old Sawaltha Wandala witnessed the Boko Haram slaughtering children at a church as he arrived for the second service. He saw the men throw one child into a ditch. More concerned for the child than his own safety, he picked up the 6-year-old boy, who had survived being severely slashed, and immediately rushed to take the child to the hospital in Cameroon. Sawaltha was stopped by five insurgents, who grabbed the boy from his arms and beheaded him, before turning to beat Sawaltha with tree branches. They finished their attack striking him in the head with a large rock, leaving him for dead with blood running from his nose and mouth.

After decimating the village and sending residents fleeing, Boko Haram returned two days later in a second series of attacks on several other villages in the Gwoza district. The back to back attacks left an estimated 200 people, including small children, dead. John Yakubu and his family were among those who fled across the border into neighboring Cameroon.

With his family facing starvation in the refugee camp, John decided to make a quick trip back to Attagara to retrieve some of his animals hoping he could sell them to support his family. Though it was dangerous, there seemed to be no other choice. At home, he decided to pick up some of the family’s other belongings, including the family Bible.

Boko Haram insurgents spotted him entering the house, and quickly captured him. “We know you’re John,” the militants said to him. “You must convert to Islam or else you will die a painful death.”

When John refused, the men tied him to a tree binding his arms and legs. The men hacked both of John’s hands with a heavy knife and mocked him. “Can you become a Muslim now?”

“You can kill my body, but not my soul,” John shouted in pain.

Using a machete as well as the knife, the men continued to torture John. They repeatedly cut into his feet and his back, stopping only to ask him if he would give up his faith in Christ and follow Allah. John refused. “We will show you,” they told him. The insurgents used an axe to cut so deeply into his knee that it reached the bone. His head was slashed with a knife.

Eventually, John lost consciousness. At some point, the terrorists left, and John was left bleeding and tied to the tree for three days before someone rescued him and he was taken to a hospital in a coma.

In the hospital, a VOM worker met John. When the worker asked John how he felt about his attackers, he replied, “I have forgiven the Islamic militants, because they did not know what they are doing.”
The words are liberating; they tell of an appalling horror over which love triumphs. Christians are commanded to love our enemies and pray for those who persecute us. It's easy to preach and it's cheap to believe - until you're confronted by such evil that every fibre of your being cries out for retaliation and revenge, which breeds mutual hostility and creates a cycle of hatred from which there is no escape.

"You must convert to Islam or else you will die a painful death” is what many thousands of Christians and other minorities are hearing right across the Islamic abyss. How many of us would be strong enough to refuse, as John did? How many of us would refuse to renounce Christ while our hands are being hacked off?

And how many would say "I forgive you" to those who wish to torture and kill our bodies?

We can only be free when we stop allowing the enemy's strategy and beliefs to dictate ours. We can only find peace when we end our obsession with the threat. We are all children of God, and He lets the sun rise on evil and good; He sends rain on the just and unjust. Anyone who repays evil with evil is doing as the world does. Those who repay evil with good have ceased simply reacting to oppression; they are creating light in the darkness; proclaiming the sovereignty of the Risen Christ over all creation; incarnating the love which nullifies hatred and conquers hostility.

If we are ever to find peace on earth, it will not be through the alienation, exile or extermination of the enemy. It will be through rejecting the 'rational' thoughts, feelings and reactions to the evil that confronts us. The Islamic militants who hack off the limbs of Christian children are as spiritually blind as the Muslim gangs who rape the children of Rotherham. Their eyes will not be opened by suspicion, invective and loathing. Their tyrannical rule will not be ended by the sword. They need to encounter the Risen Christ and be renewed from within. And that means we must love them and forgive, because they do not know what they are doing.           

163 Comments:

Blogger seanrobsville said...

Mohammedans know that the best way to strike terror in the hearts of the infidels (as Mohammed commanded) is to kill, rape and enslave kafir children. These tactics appear wherever Muslims come into contact with infidels and are very successful.

Islamic murder and gang-rape of infidel children is a common feature of jihad worldwide. We've seen rape and murder of school children at Beslan, abduction and sex slavery of Nigerian, Yazidi and Iraqi Christian girls, gang-rape of Burmese girls, and attacks on British children in every city with a sizeable Muslim population.

In fact, the Muslim population needn't be that sizable. In Rotherham, a town with just 3% Muslims (http://www.rotherham.gov.uk/jsna/info/23/people/54/ethnicity_and_cultural_identity), the jihadists subverted, intimidated, corrupted and threatened the police, council and social workers into abject dhimmitude for years while their beating, burnings, stabbings and rapes of kafir kids went unpunished.

Muslim councillors asked social workers to reveal the addresses of the shelters where some of the abused girls were hiding. A Muslim deputy leader of the council is accused of “ignoring a politically inconvenient truth” by insisting there was not a deep-rooted problem of Islamic perpetrators targeting young white girls. The inquiry was told that influential Muslim councillors acted as “barriers to communication” on grooming issues. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html

It now appears that the Muslims not only intimidated the local authorities, but also the B. Liar government as well: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/rotherham-child-sex-abuse-scandal-labour-home-office-to-be-probed-over-what-tony-blairs-government-knew--and-when-9701861.html

31 August 2014 at 10:00  
Blogger Manfarang said...

What happened in Rotherham was a result of irreligion.
What is happening in Nigeria is a result of very different factors.
Nigeria is a product of someone who drew lines on a map.

31 August 2014 at 10:52  
Blogger Elizabeth said...

What an inspired and amazing article.You have got it in one;truthful and uncompromising;holding up the biblical and New Testament values of forgiveness and love. Thank you and bless you (I think archbishops are allowed to be blessed)

31 August 2014 at 11:13  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Nice try Cranmer. You priest types are obliged to preach to us human wretches to turn the other cheek and forgive. Lovely idea, and one wishes it was that simple. Really, one does. So how does the good Christian ‘get around’ Christ’s commands. It’s fairly easy, so grab pen and paper and let the Inspector advise you how it’s done...

His divine commands only apply to one on one disputes. That is, you and a neighbour. It could never be applied to a war of conquest by an army, no matter how rag tag said army is. It’s the way of the world, you see. Did Christ when tempted by Satan come to some arrangement with him, which by his own words would imply he must. Or did he tell him to sod off ?

The prime directive in this life is to survive. You don’t manage that by turning your cheek to a blade. Fortunately, while you are on your knees praying for some kind of divine intervention, which if it did come, would not be in an obvious tangible manner, us Christian Soldiers are organising to fight the good fight. You do believe in the good fight, don’t you, padre ?

Or are you merely a hindrance that we must ignore, for sanity and morale’s sake.

31 August 2014 at 11:59  
Blogger bluedog said...

Gregory, bishop, servant of the servants of God, to all who are willing to defend the Christian faith, greeting and apostolic benediction.

We hereby inform you that the bearer of this letter, on his recent return from across the sea [from Palestine], came to Rome to visit us. He repeated what we had heard from many others, that a pagan race had overcome the Christians and with horrible cruelty had devastated everything almost to the walls of Constantinople, and were now governing the conquered lands with tyrannical violence, and that they had slain many thousands of Christians as if they were but sheep. If we love God and wish to be recognized as Christians, we should be filled with grief at the misfortune of this great empire [the Greek] and the murder of so many Christians. But simply to grieve is not our whole duty. The example of our Redeemer and the bond of fraternal love demand that we should lay down our lives to liberate them. "Because he has laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren," [1 John 3:16]. Know, therefore, that we are trusting in the mercy of God and in the power of his might and that we are striving in all possible ways and making preparations to render aid to the Christian empire [the Greek] as quickly as possible. Therefore we beseech you by the faith in which you are united through Christ in the adoption of the sons of God, and by the authority of St. Peter, prince of apostles, we admonish you that you be moved to proper compassion by the wounds and blood of your brethren and the danger of the aforesaid empire and that, for the sake of Christ, you undertake the difficult task of bearing aid to your brethren [the Greeks]. Send messengers to us at once inform us of what God may inspire you to do in this matter.

Plus ca change etc...

31 August 2014 at 12:08  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Dear Elizabeth. If you are able to think of forgiveness and love while a muslim mounts you, having cut the head off your child, then you shall sit on the right hand of God, next to Christ, probably...

31 August 2014 at 12:10  
Blogger IanCad said...

Another thoughtful post YG.

I can only echo what Elizabeth said.

The role of the Christian is truly defined, and, if we were to be thrust into such a situation, let us pray that the Holy Spirit would strengthen us as he did John Yakubu and all of the other known and unknown martyrs who have died in The Lord.

We also have Romans 13:1-7 to guide us as to how, collectively, society should deal with evil men:

"---for it does not bear the sword in vain. It is God’s servant to administer retribution on the wrongdoer---"

The civil authorities have a role to play. Decent administrations have a duty to fight the evil of Muslim extremism with all the power they control.

It is their duty.

31 August 2014 at 12:11  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Look chaps, one doesn’t want to put to fine a point on it, but there are some situations where only .303 Christianity works. It sent the NAZIs to an early divine judgement, and it will work with Boko Harem too. You just see it in action, and watch in awe as God’s work is done for him.

31 August 2014 at 12:22  
Blogger Nick said...

"..every fibre of your being cries out for retaliation and revenge, which breeds mutual hostility and creates a cycle of hatred from which there is no escape..."

Is it necessarily retaliation or revenge to halt a massacre through lethal force? Is military action against ISIS any different from shooting a rabid dog before it bites you?

John's forgiveness of his captors is exactly what Jesus expects each of us when we are the victim, but the rest of us are (potentially) in a position to prevent such massacres in the first place, either by providing safety or by destoying the attacker. John's story does beg the question is it an act of love to stand by and let a brother or sister in Christ be destroyed when we have the power to prevent it?

31 August 2014 at 12:48  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

The inspector is right

Turning the other cheek is so that a kiss can be placed on both cheeks. One cheek would mean that you are willing to talk but do not trust them. Two cheeks means acceptance.

It is the same in Africa with one handshake and two hand shakes. One indicates that you will not kill them but you do not trust them yet.

Turning the other cheek does not imply that you let them walk all over you. Indeed you may mentally forgive them just before you pull the trigger or hang them from a tree or afterwards.

Turning the other cheek is primarily for your own benefit, not your enemy.

As the Inspector says turning the other cheek is not a license for you to give in to, or compromise with Evil.

Phil

31 August 2014 at 12:52  
Blogger Jim McLean said...

Loving your enemy and forgiving them is crucial. So is preventing evil acts taking place. Christian teaching is not a passive, zen-like philosophy.

Our ability to forgive depends on how willing we are to actively defend through force what is dear to us.

31 August 2014 at 12:54  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

And Christ when at the temple managed to get a ‘love thy neighbour and forgive him, that kind of thing’ in when Peter drew his sword and cut an officials ear off. There then stepped forward a man named Eric, who was a known Idler. “Lord, what gives ?”

And Jesus grabbed Eric by both shoulders, slapped his face in semi playful fashion, and said “Look, sunshine, you do as I say, not as my lads do”

And the crowd dispersed not knowing what to think.

And so it came to pass, this bit got missed out of the NT.

31 August 2014 at 12:54  
Blogger Manfarang said...

Inspector
Talking of soldiers-
"Yesterday's shoot-out was the first time members of the 130-strong contingent in the Golan Heights was engaged in combat amid growing concerns for their safety.The Sunday Independent can reveal that troops fought their way through Islamic insurgent lines and freed trapped Filipino UN soldiers.The Irish soldiers returned fire when fired on during the early-morning raid to free the 81 Filipino peacekeepers who had been under siege by the Islamists for three days.Most of the Filipinos were freed in the daring rescue mission."

31 August 2014 at 13:04  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

That’s from many years back Manfarang. The Irish are very proud of their contribution to the UN peacekeeping mission, and they have a museum in some former British barracks in Dublin. Think they renamed it Michael Collins barracks. Corrigan would know for sure.


31 August 2014 at 13:25  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Luckily, Nigeria has a large, vibrant, very active, and growing Christian population, in the South and Centre parts anyway, so I expect everything will turn out fine in the end. In fact, Lagos is such a stable, peaceful, prosperous, and morally upstanding place that I heard the Pope was thinking of spending his summers in the city as a retreat. If only I could have been born there instead of a shithole like the UK.

31 August 2014 at 13:27  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

I'll do the humour around here DanJ0

31 August 2014 at 13:29  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

I'm doing irony today, not humour, following on from the thread below. Carry on!

31 August 2014 at 13:31  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Irony eh ? Any good at it ?

31 August 2014 at 13:41  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

@ Jim McLean

"Loving your enemy and forgiving them is crucial. So is preventing evil acts taking place. Christian teaching is not a passive, zen-like philosophy."

Actually Buddhism says it's OK to kill a terrorist, even before he's had the chance to kill anyone else, provided you do it compassionately... http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/belief/2011/may/11/buddhism-bin-laden-death-dalai-lama

31 August 2014 at 13:46  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

This is an insightful and challenging article conveying the full extent of what it can really involve to turn the other cheek. Such forgiveness in the face of extreme pain and suffering can only happen through the aid of the Holy Spirit. Humanly speaking such a response is impossible.

Do not take revenge, my dear friends, but leave room for God’s wrath, for it is written: ‘It is mine to avenge; I will repay,’ says the Lord. (Rom 12:19)

Personal retaliation, organising mobs etc does not leave room for God's vengeance. If we take the law into our own hands it will be counterproductive. God has provided a means for restraining and punishing evildoers through the maintenance of law and order by Rulers and Governments. It is their responsibility to protect whether it as a village in Nigeria or Rotherham in the UK.

Governmental corruption and neglect led to disasters like Nigeria. It must not be allowed to happen here. But we have a problem. Our elected representatives are more interested in preserving their impeccable non-racist credentials than protecting vulnerable children in care, so it is not unreasonable to suppose that they will place avoidance of the slightest hint of Islamophobia well above protection of the likes of you and I.

If a Government fails to protect their people the best solution is to use legitimate means to replace it with one that will. None of the existing Political Class are up to the job. We need regime change at home.

31 August 2014 at 13:46  
Blogger skeetstar said...

Igio @ 12.22. Sadly we are saddled with 5.56mm Christianity now, and much less inclination to use it.

31 August 2014 at 13:59  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

The rebels opened fire on the village and went after people with their machetes.

I wonder when someone is going to make the excuse they were 'disenfranchised' 'radicalised' youths, disillusioned and marginalised by western capitalism and nothing to do with the peaceful message of Islam.

31 August 2014 at 14:35  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

IGIO,
You are getting over-excited. I suggest a cold shower or lying down in a darkened room.

As Christians, we must have nothing to do with violence or taking revenge (eg. Romans 12:19-21). It may be that our government will decide that British troops will have to engage the Islamists (Rom. 13:4) but we should be praying for their repentance and salvation.

For a few years now, some of the Free churches up and down the country have been organizing the Concert of Prayer- open meetings for prayer once a quarter on a Saturday morning between 10-00am and 12 noon. The next such meeting is scheduled for October 4th. I can't speak for every church, but my own little chapel in East Devon welcomes anyone who loves the Lord Jesus to join with us.

Further details here:
http://marprelate.wordpress.com/2014/08/30/concert-of-prayer-oct-4th-2014/

'You who make mention of the LORD, do not keep silent, and give Him no rest until He establishes and till He makes Jerusalem a praise in the earth' (Isaiah 62:6-7).

31 August 2014 at 14:36  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

DanJo

"If only I could have been born there instead of a shithole like the UK"

There are some very nice parts of Nigeria. Even Lagos has its upmarket section with the most expensive real estate in Africa. A 3 bedroom flat in some areas will cost you at least £500K.

Perhaps you should give it a go and live there for a while. They will no doubt be sympathetic to your lifestyle choice, especially the Boko guys in the North.

Phil

31 August 2014 at 14:39  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Martin

"As Christians, we must have nothing to do with violence or taking revenge"

So pacifism...

" It may be that our government will decide that British troops will have to engage the Islamists"

So leave it up to others.....

So good to know that you will at least have a clear conscience when if you little chapel in East Devon is attacked and the congregation murdered and you do nothing but watch.

Hitler loved Christians like you Martin. You don't hate Evil, you are scared of it.

Phil

31 August 2014 at 14:47  
Blogger seanrobsville said...

@Dreadnaught
"I wonder when someone is going to make the excuse they were 'disenfranchised' 'radicalised' youths, disillusioned and marginalised by western capitalism and nothing to do with the peaceful message of Islam."

I'm surprised nobody has blamed the Joooooooooooz.

31 August 2014 at 15:16  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Martin Marprelate. If you can fly over and manage to persuade Boko that Jesus has sent you to parley, they may well eat you. An honour reserved only for their most formidable enemies, no less. What a magnificent end it would make for a magnificent martyr by proxy like you, don’t you think ?

31 August 2014 at 15:27  
Blogger IanCad said...

Heaven Knows!
Martin and I may have our theological differences, but for him to be labeled as a "Hitler Christian" is just plain wrong.

It is quite clear that he supports state intervention if and when necessary.

Read Romans 13.

31 August 2014 at 15:57  
Blogger DanJ0 said...

Phil: "Even Lagos has its upmarket section with the most expensive real estate in Africa. A 3 bedroom flat in some areas will cost you at least £500K."

They've probably been bought by locals using the proceeds of 419er scams on old ladies in Bournemouth and the like.

31 August 2014 at 16:01  
Blogger Ivan said...


Boko Haram and the Islamic rapists in England, don't do what they do out of ignorance of the true teachings of Christ. They are not like Saul driven by a desire to root out of untruths, and this comparison I make is totally unfair to Saul, who had not the slightest interest in rape or enslavement.

No Boko Haram and the Islamists who target females of other races do so with the conviction that they are superior to everyone else and that others are in fact to be enslaved. As I have said before true Islam is a well-oiled Darwinian machine for the enslavement of others, and cannot be treated like any other religion.

31 August 2014 at 16:05  
Blogger Ivan said...


seanrobesville @15:16, going out on a limb as usual I'll say that if there is any truth to the rumour that it was the Jews of Medina that sheltered Mohamed when he escaped from Mecca, then J(o^100)z may have to shoulder some of the blame.

31 August 2014 at 16:15  
Blogger Ivan said...

...for rhetorical purposes only of course, as the protagonists have been dead for a millenia and more.

31 August 2014 at 16:18  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Jesus requiring us to offer the other cheek is not the same as requiring us to turn the other way. Can anyone believe that Jesus would simply offer his cheek when a six year old is beheaded? Or that he would condemn a man for killing to stop it?
I have believed that when he calls us to forgive it is mainly for the forgivers benefit and not the forgiven. Bitterness and anger can destroy self. Upon saying that if I had suffered what this brave man suffered I would want vengeance and revenge. Personally I would want them put through a bacon slicer!

DanJo I think you have got off lightly today!

31 August 2014 at 16:40  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...


“Dear Diary – What a day I’ve had. Boko Harem turned up in the afternoon and killed everybody. They even cut the head off my little Sambo. It happened so quickly I don’t think he realised what was happening. When his head rolled into the corner, the eyes on his sweet face were still blinking. Hubby, useless as ever, turned his cheek as he loves doing and was slain on the spot. I was then continually raped by a few of them. Talk about bad hair day ! Martin Marprelate rang to say how lucky we all were to be martyrs, as he doesn't get much of a chance to do that in East Devon. That cheered me considerably, and gave me the strength to crawl along the ground to the smouldering ruins of the church to give thanks to God. I’ve certainly earned my place in heaven, I can tell you. Well, that’s it for now. We wait to see what tomorrow will bring”




31 August 2014 at 17:00  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Inspector

A little cruel, but done stylishly! I'm fairly sure Martin wasn't really suggesting that extreme.

31 August 2014 at 17:08  
Blogger David Hussell said...

The Christian is called to fight when necessary, and especially to defend the weak, but without hatred of the enemy that must be defeated. That's the point.

Hatred eats away at the hater, undoubtedly. Whether one is a civilian or a regular soldier, or merely some one defending themselves and those that need to be defended, hatred is always corrosive. It will undermine effectiveness and the facility to pray to God for help.

Christianity and pacifism are different things and should not be confused. Evil must be defeated by good people, if necessary by force.

I rest my case.

31 August 2014 at 17:29  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

David Hussell

Well put. Although war is always a symptom of human failure, sometimes not to fight will be the bigger sin.

31 August 2014 at 17:34  
Blogger John Robert Moore said...

Manfarang said at 10.52 blames the British for drawing lines on the map without respect for the tribes and religions. Quite so but the Africans at the time of the hand over of these countries could well have drawn different lines but they didn't probably because the new Presidents liked the idea of taking over from the British Governor.

31 August 2014 at 17:36  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

One notes on the news that our wonderful contribution to the worldwide Islamic struggle may not be allowed back in the country according to Cameron. Looks like we really are leaving the ECHR then !


31 August 2014 at 18:17  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Let’s say we stop 200 British passport holding Mohameds from coming back, stranding them in Mosal. They get onto their sympathising Islamic lawyer mates in London, who bring a case on their behalf. As it stands, the ECHR rules in their favour, as they must, because they’ve been denied the right to whatever, and award them full costs and 50K compensation a piece. That’s Satan’s Court for you. And don’t say it couldn’t happen like that, because we all know it will !


31 August 2014 at 18:30  
Blogger Shadrach said...

Very touching post Your Grace,

It is hard to imagine the circumstances under which these people have to live on a daily basis.

I was very friendly with Archbishop Benson Idahosa from Benin, Nigeria. I witnessed a talk he gave at a meeting in Hampton Court in 1988 where he prophesied the fall of the Berlin wall in one year hence. We laughed to ourselves but it came to pass. Later, he said that after the fall of Communism, the next 'ism' to fall would be Islam.

We have not seen the fall but we are certainly seeing the exposure of the fundamental truths of Islam that have been hidden from the masses through the so-called moderate Muslims and the political power they have exerted to achieve recognition in society. Soon we pray that the exposing of their hand will bring governments and the church to their senses.

I am somewhat disturbed by the flippant comments of your communicants above. This subject is no laughing matter and needs to be considered with the greatest of respect.

31 August 2014 at 19:03  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...


Shadrach, mocking Christian surrender monkeys is a very serious business. Very serious indeed...

31 August 2014 at 19:13  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Inspector @ 18.30

Interesting and welcome news you bring us. Your scenario is realistic I think.

These people must be exiled permanently. Public safety must be paramount. History will never forgive any PM who weakens on that one. Even vacillating "I have no beliefs or values" Cameron must see that, surely ? He simply must find the courage to exclude these people.

If that compromises their "Human Rights", it simply shows how twisted the whole Human Rights farrago truly is - a secularists charter for destroying both the publics' faith in "justice" and the ragged cultural remnants of Christendom, that what it amounts to ! Loosely, Human Rights stems from philosophies swilling around the French Revolution. The whole "rights" package is so utterly inferior to the crisp, measured qualities of our unadulterated Common Law based loosely on Biblical values and Anglo-Saxon notions of justice.

I

31 August 2014 at 19:43  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector

With all due respect, after reading ABC's words - one of his best posts, in Jack's opinion - one then has to endure your *humorous* comments. All Jack has to say is that there are times when you can be a real cretin. Yes, Jack knows this is pure ad hominem but sometimes that's all he can muster in the face of such crass stupidity.

That comment @ 17:00 is a disgrace. Are you *man* enough to delete it?

"Surrender monkeys"? Nowhere is it suggested that the sword should not be taken up firmly to protect innocent people against these evil men and then to go to defeat the evil of extreme Islamists.

One's heart goes out to John, as our Saviour's undoubtedly will too. Think of John's faith, sacrifice and courage as you sit in your armchair jeering and cheering for crass violence against *lesser* races and peoples.

Good evening to you, Sir.

31 August 2014 at 19:57  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack, you are the very last communicant on this blog to define decorum.

This man has absolutely no intention of removing anything he has put down this day, none at all. Because he is absolutely SICK TO HIS STOMACH of solemn platitudes by the great and good and PEACEFUL in far away countries while REAL SUFFERING goes on after the platitudes are made and the wine is brought out. How’s that for living Christianity ??

Were it in this man’s power, he would resurrect the Second SS Panzer Division and send them to Africa. A few weeks of those fellas and Boko Harem would just be a nasty footnote in history.

31 August 2014 at 20:23  
Blogger Preacher said...

None of us know what courage & strength it must have taken John to utter those words. We are all only human & to be honest having read the account I have struggled inwardly with hatred & disgust at these, I can't really bring myself to call them men & I wasn't there to see or experience these atrocities.
They must be demon possessed to do these things.

After WWII, the war criminals of the Nazi regime faced war crime trials & those responsible were punished according to the laws that existed at the time. Do these killers deserve mercy or justice?

God states clearly that vengeance is His & HE will repay. There are no alibis or excuses in His court & the penalty is eternal.
I wonder if that six year old boy will face his murderer on that day & look into his eyes as sentence is passed & the face of that innocent victim will remind the condemned of his guilt forever as he suffers for his arrogance, evil & crimes against the helpless.

It's hard not to hate evil, but as Christians we must fight the inner demons that tempt us to seek the revenge that we crave. But - "All men will die - & after that the Judgement!". Amen.

31 August 2014 at 20:49  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Have those who believe that turning the other cheek should be taken literally also plucked out their right eye, cut off their right hand, cast a mountain into the sea and given all they have to the poor?

31 August 2014 at 20:52  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...


By the way Jack, what can you offer John. Your deepest regrets ? Is that all there is, your worthless thoughts when you do find time to think about his and others plight out there. He’d rather you offer him the earthly comfort of ridding him of his enemies. In other words, a force to shoot the bastards on sight. Until there are no more to be found to be shot. And when we’ve done it, we’ll give thanks and praise to God. For we are righteous in what we did do.



31 August 2014 at 20:52  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Preacher, revenge ? No. Call it doing what must be done.

31 August 2014 at 20:55  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

'British born Jihadists' may be temporarily banned from the UK!!!'

Well that'l learn them!

Does anyone understand what the rational for this is? I just don't get it, how can this possibly help? Extra training time for them perhaps, to hone their bomb making skills?

31 August 2014 at 21:08  
Blogger Preacher said...

OIGO.
If you really believe that your way is right then you must follow the dictates of your heart.
It's easy to be an armchair hero when sitting safely at home.
Talk's cheap & black humour or flippancy about serious crimes, fails to impress this contributor.

If you don't believe that the Word of God is true, that is your own affair. I do!.

31 August 2014 at 21:12  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...


Preacher, your Christianity. It’s just words on a page for you, isn't it ? The idea of putting it into practice to deal with evil humanity has you trembling in your slippers. Stick to Weddings Christenings and Funerals dear chap. The world outside your building is not for you...

31 August 2014 at 21:20  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Explorer

Some interpret turning the other cheek as an act of defiance and not passivity. Think about it. You are struck on the left cheek by your assailant who uses his right hand. You turn you right cheek to him. He cannot now slap you with the outside of his right hand. What does he do?

Preacher

We are called to hate evil, not the men committing it. Who cannot loath In seeking earthly justice or in defending the weak against an aggressor, we do so dispassionately. We don't need cheap jingoism.

31 August 2014 at 21:57  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

^ Who cannot loath these evil acts? ^

31 August 2014 at 21:58  
Blogger Preacher said...

OIGO
ROFL. Your response speaks volumes.

H.J
I speak honestly as I feel. If you think I'm 'jingoistic' , that is up to you. Although that is the first time that the word has been applied to me.

31 August 2014 at 22:09  
Blogger bluedog said...

Clive Mitchell @ 21.08 asks, 'Does anyone understand what the rational for this is?'

These mujahideen are killers. Out of love and understanding we should leave them in the killing zone of their choice. Until...

31 August 2014 at 22:14  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HJ @ 21:57

I interpret it as not bearing grudges.

Turning the other cheek is often used in conjunction with Christ telling Peter to put up his sword as evidence for pacifism.

But Christ was to die in order that the Atonement might happen.

That the sword was inappropraite for that situation does not mean it is ainappropriate for all situations. Otherwise, surely,Chrsit would ahve told the Centurion to change his occupation?

31 August 2014 at 22:22  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...


Preacher, ROFL ? Thank you for not laughing your arse off too. Your restraint means a lot, probably...

31 August 2014 at 22:22  
Blogger Jay Bee said...

Clive@21:08

The rationale is to make it appear that the Govt is doing something in the face of its impotence to ban Jihadists from returning permanently and to buy time because they don't even have the wherewithal to keep track of the blighters that have already come back. The last thing we need is the next wave returning full of missionary zeal.

In all probability even a temporary ban is illegal under international law but I suppose they might manage to keep them at bay until the inevitable legal challenge. Difficult to see how though.

31 August 2014 at 22:31  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Explorer

Jesus was being arrested by the Temple Guards, a legitimate authority carrying out their orders. Why attack them? Jack has never understood Jesus chastising Peter as a call to pacifism, more a call for restraint and thought.

Jack subscribes to the Just War theory and the need, duty even, to use the sword in appropriate circumstances and in appropriate ways.

Preacher

The term jingoism was directed at our less thoughtful communicants, well, actually, one in particular, and most certainly not at you. Apologies if Jack was unclear.

31 August 2014 at 22:37  
Blogger David Hussell said...

The Explorer @ 22.22

Quite ! Context is the key to understanding the Scripture.

Christ knew that to fulfil the prophecies he must die, so he wanted no unnecessary delay or distraction from a sword fight that could not be won - there was a considerable number of Roman soldiers in the arrest ing party. So Peter was told to accept the situation and effectively, surrender.

But one cannot extrapolate from that to say that one must never fight. Your example of the Centurion NOT being told to desert the army points to an acceptance of soldiering as a career option.

Did Christianity import this pacifism stuff from Christian Socialism ? I can't see any other source, not recently, in the last century, anyway.

31 August 2014 at 22:41  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...


Jack, it takes much to kill a man, at least the first time. Even Boko Harem filth. Your jingoism is thus readily accepted.

31 August 2014 at 22:51  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

David H

Tsk ... Jesus was arrested by the Temple guards of the Sanhedrin. As Jack said earlier, they were carrying out the orders of a legitimate Jewish authority.

31 August 2014 at 22:54  
Blogger bluedog said...

HJ says, 'As Jack said earlier, they were carrying out the orders of a legitimate Jewish authority.'

Only obeying orders, eh?

So that's okay then.

31 August 2014 at 22:59  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

Not so much an inspector general as an armchair general.

I don't know what you're still doing here writing from leafy Surbiton or wherever. Off to Iraq with you, man, rally the Kurds and bathe your mighty sword in the innards of Johnny Moslem. Violence is always the last resort of the incompetent.

As for me, I shall stay in sunny East Devon and pray. 'More things are wrought by prayer than this world dreams of.'

31 August 2014 at 23:30  
Blogger Shadrach said...

A Preacher I knew used to say that Jesus only told us to turn the other cheek. He did not say what we should or should not do thereafter.

It is our brother that we have to forgive seventy time seven. And that is providing they show contrition each time.

31 August 2014 at 23:35  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Martin Marprelate, sarcasm ill becomes you.

31 August 2014 at 23:41  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

bluedog

"Only obeying orders, eh?
So that's okay then."


Not at all.

Was the order to bring Jesus to trial before the High Priest and Sanhedrin illegitimate or immoral? What happened thereafter certainly was but to bring Jesus before the Court for questioning?

What case do you make against the Guards and the Sanhedrin at that point in time? Are you saying there was malice aforethought on those issuing the order and the Guards knew this and should have mutinied?

31 August 2014 at 23:54  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Do send us all a postcard Inspector.

1 September 2014 at 01:06  
Blogger Manfarang said...

John R Moore @17:36
Nigeria went on to have a civil war in the 1960s- do you remember Biafra?

1 September 2014 at 03:34  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

This comment has been removed by the author.

1 September 2014 at 03:46  
Blogger Phil Roberts said...

Martin

"Violence is always the last resort of the incompetent"

So what it your last resort Martin. You will pray for "Johnny Moslem"....fine, I don't have an issue with that.... except is the prayer really for Johnny Moslem or you? Don't you think God knows about the small problem Christians are having in Iraq, Nigeria etc already?

You are like the Apostles at the feeding of the 5000. (The problem is too big Lord you do it all, we just give up)

God does not work your way.

He wants our bread and fishes.

What is God's plan? We are God's plan for his solution to our problems. We need to act first and he will be with us. Not just cry to God and do nothing in "sunny Devon".

Will Jesus know you on judgment day Martin? Or will he perhaps welcome the Inspector, who you despise and clearly think that is a "bad Christian" because he actually advocates using our bread and fishes to resist Evil.

Phil

1 September 2014 at 03:51  
Blogger Cressida de Nova said...

My thoughts on " turn the other cheek"

1. The phrase has been deliberately misinterpreted as an excuse for cowardice and non involvement . Masochism is a perversion and a sin

2. Turn the other cheek is meant to be a sign of defiance meaning we will do everything it takes to beat the barbarians and enemies of Christianity

3. Chriatians are morally bound to defend their faith.It is a sin to sit by and do nothing.Every little bit helps using our blogs, a signature,prayer but most imortantly positive action.Christianity is not synonymous with cowardice, twisting scripture to justify
comfortable fence sitting.

4. When it is said we must love our enemies ,it does not literally mean that, because that in itself is perverted. It
means we should not hate them. Once they have been suppressed and are no longer dangerous to us, it means we should not to make them suffer in any way and treat them with kindness and decency Hopefully by merciful example they will be drawn to the Christian way of life and then we can love them.

1 September 2014 at 04:27  
Blogger Len said...

So here we have the quandary of the Christian fight or turn the other cheek?.
Are we to be Christians such as King David who fought Goliath killed the giant and hacked his head off or gentle Jesus meek and mild?.
When Jesus returns he will be a warrior King defeating all his enemies and ruling with a rod of iron.
Evil need to be resisted and if we do not resist we become complicit with evil.

In war, resolution; in defeat, defiance; in victory, magnanimity
( Winston Churchill)

This will gain respect for ones enemies who will perhaps then listen to the Gospel.

1 September 2014 at 08:21  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Cressida de Nova @ 04.27

Well said - spot on ! That's the spirit.

Let's reclaim our faith from the wingers and cowards. Evil must be opposed.

Len @ 08.21

We all know that the "Jesus meek and mild" is the level of theology appropriate for calming restive Sunday School kids, and not the reality of his life at all. It's time this was pointed out with vigour.

Jesus was very kind and supportive to the weak and oppressed as well as forgiving to sinners who repented of their wrong doing, but he was a fearless, uncompromising and brave man to the point of foolhardiness, towards the bullies, the grasping and the cheats. He fearlessly faced down evil. He did not outlaw force as a necessary last resort when reasoning would not work.

To fail to defend the young, the old and the weak is a sin, and to defend them, firstly you have to defend yourself, either individually or preferably working with other capable defenders.

1 September 2014 at 08:57  
Blogger Len said...

I believe one of the turning points of the War in the desert(WW2) which Rommel was winning was the appointment of Field Marshal Montgomery who as a committed Christian prayed and asked God for guidance and called his men to prayer before every battle.

Where are such leaders today? where are Christian leaders who are prepared to call the Nation to prayer as Abraham Lincoln did?.No leader would dare because it would not be' politically correct' and might alienate a minority group somewhere or infringe someones 'human rights'.

In the spiritual and physical battles that lay ahead we have no leaders prepared or even equipped to lead that battle as they did in the past because we have destroyed our Judeo/Christian foundation.
Stalin killed off all his officers prior to the WW2 because he was paranoid about any of them gaining power and overthrowing him so he was unable to resist the German advance when it came as he had no leaders other than himself. We have done the same in Europe by weakening and attempting to destroy out Judeo/Christian foundations.

1 September 2014 at 10:12  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

David H

"the wingers and cowards."

Whilst I am not a pacifist, to condemn them in such a way is unfair. To take such a stand in the face of often vitriolic opposition can take genuine bravery. Unless I am ever in a position to have to fight and take life, I am not really in a position to accuse others of cowardice.

1 September 2014 at 10:27  
Blogger IanCad said...

David Hussell wrote:

"wingers and cowards"

Seems a bit out of character for you David.


Names please!

1 September 2014 at 10:54  
Blogger Martin Marprelate said...

'You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures, nor the power of God' (Matthew 22:29).

'"Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit," says the LORD of hosts' (Zechariah 4:6).

'For to this [suffering] you were called, because Christ suffered for us, leaving us an example, that you should follow His steps: "Who committed no sin, nor was deceit found in His mouth," who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously' (1 Peter 2:21-22).

'I gave my back to those who struck Me, and My cheeks to those who plucked out the beard; I did not hide My face from shame and spitting' (Isaiah 50:6).

'And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death' (Revelation 12:11).

1 September 2014 at 11:14  
Blogger skeetstar said...

Happy Jack

'Was the order to bring Jesus to trial before the High Priest and Sanhedrin illegitimate or immoral? What happened thereafter certainly was but to bring Jesus before the Court for questioning?'

Yes it was. It was illegal under Jewish law to hold a trial at night, it was also illegal for a man to be arrested for a capital offence, at night. The SanHedrin knew this and the broke their own laws.



What case do you make against the Guards and the Sanhedrin at that point in time? Are you saying there was malice aforethought on those issuing the order and the Guards knew this and should have mutinied?

I don't know much about the temple guard, who led them or what its composition was, but if they were Jewish men and jewish led, then they knew they were acting illegally. It matters little though, the real injustice was perpetrated by theit masters in the SH who sent them on their errand.

As for malice aforethought, of course there was, the SH had taken the precaution of securing the services of a number of false witnesses for their illegal trial.

1 September 2014 at 11:30  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Martin

Unless you attempt to place into context, reeling off a list of 'proof' texts neither proves or explains anything. I'm not really sure what you are trying to say?

1 September 2014 at 11:50  
Blogger David Hussell said...

IanCad @ 10.54

"Names please!"

I am defending the right to the principle of self-defence not attacking individuals.

1 September 2014 at 12:27  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Clive Mitchell @ 10.27

I agree that the decision to be a non-combatant can be courageous but only under certain circumstances.

So those who volunteered to dash about under aerial bombardment or enemy fire rescuing the wounded and damaged were obviously brave and self-sacrificial, I would agree.

But that's to get into the details of such matters, hedging the argument around with ifs and buts, when my main purpose is to robustly reject the false idea that Christians should allow themselves, together with the weak and defenceless to be murdered, which is manifestly not the case. On that I will not be moved.

1 September 2014 at 12:36  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Len @ 10.12

You are correct regarding the significance of General Montgomery's victory at El Alamein. It was a turning point. He delivered the first decisive British victory over the enemy, and it was an all British/Commonwealth one. After that all operations were allied ones.

His staunch evangelical background gave him a deep reverence for human life, on both sides, so he tried to minimise losses. Additionally his strong personal faith moved him to ensure that all officers and men were urged and encouraged by prayer to place their faith in God. The troops were deployed over a wide area but through radio all were involved in prayers on the eve of battle.

He was a cautious strategist, a great leader and a wonderfully victorious General. My father fought under him.

1 September 2014 at 12:46  
Blogger IanCad said...

David, to quote you:

"--my main purpose is to robustly reject the false idea that Christians should allow themselves, together with the weak and defenceless to be murdered--"

Seconded! And, unless I've missed it, the sentiment of all on this thread.

1 September 2014 at 12:47  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

David H

And on that point I entirely agree.

1 September 2014 at 12:50  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

1 September 2014 at 13:02  
Blogger Uncle Brian said...

David Hussell, IanCad

Thirded!

1 September 2014 at 13:18  
Blogger Sidney Deane said...

haha oh dear i said the f word.

i somehow thought this blog would delete such a comment...

1 September 2014 at 13:24  
Blogger David Hussell said...

IanCad,

Clive Mitchell

+ last but by no means least, Uncle Brian,

Widespread agreement - maybe unanimous ?

Splendid stuff !

Let all the bells, great and small, ring !

1 September 2014 at 15:23  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Len

Abraham Lincoln was not a Christian.

carl

1 September 2014 at 15:30  
Blogger The Explorer said...

When Christ said, "Father forgive them for they know not what they do," was he a) speaking in relation to the crucifixion, or b) saying that no one commits evil knowingly?

I think Christ meant a). John Huss' "Sancta simplicitas" sentiment towards the old peasant bringing a piece of wood to help burn Huss expresses a similar sentiment.

b) leads to universalism: evil is the result of ignorance, not malice, and therefore is not culpable.

But in 'John', particularly, Christ suggests men prefer darkness to light because their deeda are evil. In other words, some of those who do evil know exactly what they are doing. Some even do it BECAUSE it is evil.

1 September 2014 at 16:28  
Blogger Len said...

Carl, During the 49 months of his presidency, Abraham Lincoln issued nine separate calls to public penitence, fasting, prayer, and thanksgiving. He was preparing a tenth when he was assassinated.
I would not be as reckless as to judge whether he was a Christian or not I suppose only God would know that?.
I also suppose that one would not pray and encourage the nation to do so unless one believed it would be effective?.

1 September 2014 at 17:02  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Explorer

There is another possibility.

Those who murdered Jesus had seen Jesus' wonders, His cures, His exorcisms. At the very least they knew He was a holy man. Maybe they did not know He was Divine - but they knew more than enough to be guilty of a very great crime.

Was Jesus asking for the grace of forgiveness and redemption to be offered to all? This does not mean that everyone must accept this forgiveness. In fact, Paul laments in Romans 9-11 that most did not accept it.

Why did Jesus ask this? To show the mercy of God in the midst of the worst conceivable sin? And to teach us to avoid seeking vengeance in redressing evil?

1 September 2014 at 17:07  
Blogger Preacher said...

H.J
Thank you for the clarification re: jingoism. no apology needed.

In the light of several postings, I think we should tread carefully or we could be in danger of criticising a brave man for his actions & words.
We have no idea of his situation or the pain & fear he had to overcome, nor his sadness & revulsion at the evil he was forced to watch.

Violence is easy, even if it is justified. Faith to believe in the promises of God & trust in Him is much harder in the circumstances John was in.
We must look beyond the present, as this World & us are passing. The eternal should be always in our thoughts.

1 September 2014 at 17:20  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Len

I know that Lincoln would sit around with friends reading the Scripture and mocking the miracles contained thereon. His relationship to Christianity was complicated. He was an eloquent man, and some people call his Second Inaugural Address the greatest speech ever written in the English language. But the fact the he used an abundance of religious imagery does not make him a believer. The fact that he called a nation to prayer does not make him a believer. There has to be some evidence if it.

carl

1 September 2014 at 17:21  
Blogger David Hussell said...

Happy Jack and Explorer,


This is my feeling, and a tad tentative too,

Jesus' killers knew that he was a Holy Man, able to achieve miracles, and therefore was a direct competitor (as they saw it) with them as priests of conventional Judaism, as it was. But I do doubt whether they truly knew that he was Divine. It is such a huge step for a pre-Christian to take, to truly believe that a living, breathing human is also the Son of God, literally.

So I think that Jesus' "forgive them they know not what they do" is to be understood in the sense that their eyes were not open to that incredible truth.

But it is impossible to be sure about this.

However as HJ says, it is also His way of ensuring that future generations of His followers, Christians as we became known after Antioch (?), did not seek revenge on his peoples' descendants.

We could all have very different interpretations of this, legitimately I suppose.

1 September 2014 at 17:29  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

On the more pacifist side of the continuum I am happy to be-termed winger as have frequently winged it in life, but whinger is a mite unjust, and coward unfair, as the belief entails a willingness to suffer and die. During the last war many pacifists were in bomb disposal, which had one of the highest mortality and injury rates, indeed. So much for kneejerk words!

1 September 2014 at 18:38  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Lucy Mullen

I think you would agree that your point has already been conceded by the author of those words

1 September 2014 at 19:17  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Lucy

It's not just the courage to die. It's the courage to kill. Wars aren't won by deactivating bombs. There is nothing particularly noble about refusing the necessary task of killing the enemy. It is a particular form of cowardice that shifts the moral weight of the necessary burden onto another. And why? Because the CO is too pure to carry it? Because the other man is already sufficiently debased?

Better the man who is willing to stick a bayonet in the gut of his enemy than the fragile soul who is too timid and weak to carry the weight. Who would you want standing between the barbarians and your children?

carl

1 September 2014 at 19:28  
Blogger IanCad said...

Carl wrote, concerning conscientious objectors:

"--It is a particular form of cowardice--"

And then:

"--the fragile soul who is too timid and weak to carry the weight--"


I must say Carl, those are outrageous statements.

The following three CO's, recipients of The Congressional Medal of Honor, put the lie to your assertions.

Desmond Doss

Thomas W. Bennett

Joseph G. LaPointe

The citations are available online to read and be thankful.

1 September 2014 at 20:02  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

IanCad

There is nothing outrageous about it. Do you think a war is won by an army of medics? The soldiers who died on Omaha beach didn't win the war. The soldiers who survived the beach, carried a rifle up the hill, found a German soldiers a blew what remained of his life all over the ground - they were the ones who won the war. And having found that enemy soldier, and having killed him, they would have to live with that knowledge for the rest of their lives. Don't tell me there is something noble about the man who says "I will go on the beach, and I will risk death, but I will not kill." There isn't anything noble about it.

As I said. The courage to die is not the same as the courage to kill. Men do the parts assigned to them. The soldiers has one job. The medic has another. But don't tell me the man who becomes a medic because he will not be a soldier is somehow more sainted than the soldier. He isn't. He is simply unwilling to carry the greater burden.

carl

1 September 2014 at 20:39  
Blogger Alison Judith Bailey said...

Your Grace, I hardly like to challenge your expertise, but I feel there are two flaws in your argument. First, about human responsibility and secondly about forgiveness. If one casts aside human responsibility, one negates free will ("they did not know what they were doing"). If so, what is the Justice of God all about? To be human and (relatively) sane is to be responsible before God for all we do. Secondly, Jesus teaches us to be always ready to forgive (a healing frame of mind) all those who injure us. He does not ask the injured to go the whole way and forgive them (or even claim to) unless or before the perpetrator(s) repent(s) (ref the teaching: "If your brother sins against you, rebuke him and if he repents, forgive him"). Equally, God does not forgive us, unless we repent. Jesus will not forgive his unrepentant murderers and acquit them on the basis that "they did not know what they were doing". Instead He will consign them to what they - dying in all their sins- deserve. He only directed the words "They do not know what they are doing" to the Roman soldiers who nailed him to the tree, under orders. This misunderstanding is prevalent even among leading theologians.

Of course, one may pursue some people with love, if guided by God, just as He pursues us when sinners overcoming our evil with His Love for sinners, pouring burning coals of kindness and love on heads. Equally, one may break relations with those who are hardened of heart and flee from their inhuman violence and abuse, thereby not condoning their sin. The leading, in each case, comes from God. I have never believed that Christ taught total non- violence and pacifism, though some early Christians did. We have the full right to defend ourselves and our families, to fight for right, justice, peace and defence of the vulnerable, though actual vengeance is for the State and for God. The Waldensians/Vaudois certainly believed that. They were admirable warriors in defence of freedom of religion. We, like them, need to seek God's wisdom to know how to react in each situation, through prayer.

1 September 2014 at 20:48  
Blogger Alison Judith Bailey said...

Your Grace, I hardly like to challenge your expertise, but I feel there are two flaws in your argument. First, about human responsibility and secondly about forgiveness. If one casts aside human responsibility, one negates free will ("they did not know what they were doing"). If so, what is the Justice of God all about? To be human and (relatively) sane is to be responsible before God for all we do. Secondly, Jesus teaches us to be always ready to forgive (a healing frame of mind) all those who injure us. He does not ask the injured to go the whole way and forgive them (or even claim to) unless or before the perpetrator(s) repent(s) (ref the teaching: "If your brother sins against you, rebuke him and if he repents, forgive him"). Equally, God does not forgive us, unless we repent. Jesus will not forgive his unrepentant murderers and acquit them on the basis that "they did not know what they were doing". Instead He will consign them to what they - dying in all their sins- deserve. He only directed the words "They do not know what they are doing" to the Roman soldiers who nailed him to the tree, under orders. This misunderstanding is prevalent even among leading theologians.

Of course, one may pursue some people with love, if guided by God, just as He pursues us when sinners overcoming our evil with His Love for sinners, pouring burning coals of kindness and love on heads. Equally, one may break relations with those who are hardened of heart and flee from their inhuman violence and abuse, thereby not condoning their sin. The leading, in each case, comes from God. I have never believed that Christ taught total non- violence and pacifism, though some early Christians did. We have the full right to defend ourselves and our families, to fight for right, justice, peace and defence of the vulnerable, though actual vengeance is for the State and for God. The Waldensians/Vaudois certainly believed that. They were admirable warriors in defence of freedom of religion. We, like them, need to seek God's wisdom to know how to react in each situation, through prayer.

1 September 2014 at 20:48  
Blogger IanCad said...

Now Now, Carl, nowhere did I say that a CO is more sainted than a fighting man; neither did I imply that he was the more noble.

I was just countering your assertions made earlier. Namely, that fragility and cowardice does not necessarily apply to CO's.

1 September 2014 at 20:54  
Blogger The Explorer said...

HG's last sentence: "And that means we must love them and forgive, because they do not know what they are doing."

My query in relation to that:

If only an encounter with the Risen Christ will bring them to an awareness of what they are doing, are we to assume they are devoid of conscience?

Or, as a more general question about humanity, do people know what right and wrong is only after they have become Christians?

1 September 2014 at 21:21  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

IanCad

And I say it does apply. The soldier and the medic who refuses to kill both face death. But only one of them has to live with the knowledge of killing. The necessary job of the soldier is to kill. What does the CO say but "You do that for me." And when did he become so privileged?

carl

1 September 2014 at 21:25  
Blogger IanCad said...

Carl, many, if not most, disapprove of violence, or the morality of a conflict.
We both live in enlightened countries where the right to dissent is written in law.

We are so blessed.

Further, given the extreme violence depicted on TV and film, it seems to me that a certain delight in the murderous craft of war is the norm.

Ian.

1 September 2014 at 21:33  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Inspector here.

Right then, have all those ‘forgive me Lord, it is a sin I even exist’ Christians who love to ‘roll over and die for Jesus’ been convinced of the folly of their beliefs yet ?

No ? Then names and addresses if you will, and this man will call and personally beat the truth into you. Think of it as Pro Bono work. A decent nearby hotel would help, if you don’t mind....

Cheery whatever !



1 September 2014 at 21:50  
Blogger bluedog said...

Well said, Carl.

IanCad, after WW2 the US Army did a study on the actions of individuals in combat, I'll try to find the name of the report, but I read about it in one of the late John Keegan's excellent books.

Long story short, the finding was that among trained soldiers in combat, only 25% actually shot to kill. Presumably the sample reflects the performance of a conscripted citizen army, as was the case in WW2.

One might expect the percentage to be much higher for a professional standing army.

1 September 2014 at 22:13  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector

And here Jack was thinking you were on a plane to Mosel or Gwoza. But no, the armchair theatrics continue. How sad. Trust you have plenty of toy soldiers to play with.

1 September 2014 at 22:50  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack. Warm greetings to you.

How are you getting on with your Christian guilt of being alive ? That’s what Original Sin is all about, isn’t it. To bring us to our knees...

1 September 2014 at 22:55  
Blogger Peter Simpson said...

I make no comment upon the way John dealt with his ordeal; I applaud his wonderful testimony and utterly honour Him for His faithfulness and absence of a revengeful spirit. However, I do think we need to be careful in our interpretation of Luke 23:34.

The Christian must never return evil for evil. We must also always forgive, when forgiveness is sought. There, is, however, no obligation to forgive those who carry on in a path of wickedness for the simple reason that God Himself has not forgiven them. He does not call us to be more compassionate than He is (which of course would be impossible).

Yes, we must never harbour resentment; yes, we must do good to those who abuse us; and yes we must pray for our persecutors that they might be brought to repentance, but the Lord does not forgive the unrepentant, and nor need we.

When Jesus said "Father forgive them", the immediate antecedent in v33 of Luke 23 to which the pronoun 'them' refers is the soldiers who carried out the crucifixion. So it could well be the soldiers whom The Lord was praying for in v34. As Roman soldiers doing their job, they had less awareness of the evil they were part of than did the chief priests and other religious leaders.

Even if the Lord was praying specifically that the priests and scribes might be forgiven, it would only be in the context of their first being humbled and brought to repentance, for God forgives on no other terms. He prayed that they might be forgiven; He did not actually forgive them, which is quite different.

Those who plotted the Lord's death in the malice of their hearts would not have been forgiven, if without repentance they had carried on rejoicing in His death. To suggest that they were forgiven is to undermine God's holiness and justice.

In courteous thoughtfulness, Pastor Peter Simpson.

1 September 2014 at 23:06  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Carl
Errr... so who created the bloody ghastly problems of war in the first place? The pacifists? The peacelovers?

Or those who revel in violence and think you win an argument through torturing or killing your opponent,or the arms dealers who always need new markets, or the afficianados of the dark side for whom it affords lots of sacrifice to their dark lord, all time cosmic loser Lucifer?

Let those who like silly pointless evil war games play them, and not foist them-in cowardly fashion- on others.

If all believed in putting vast effort into diplomacy, not war, and if all were pacifist one of the very greatest evils, and seedbeds of further evil would cease to exist.

1 September 2014 at 23:21  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Carl
Errr... so who created the bloody ghastly problems of war in the first place? The pacifists? The peacelovers?

Or those who revel in violence and think you win an argument through torturing or killing your opponent,or the arms dealers who always need new markets, or the afficianados of the dark side for whom it affords lots of sacrifice to their dark lord, all time cosmic loser Lucifer?

Let those who like silly pointless evil war games play them, and not foist them-in cowardly fashion- on others.

If all believed in putting vast effort into diplomacy, not war, and if all were pacifist one of the very greatest evils, and seedbeds of further evil would cease to exist.

1 September 2014 at 23:22  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...


“If all believed in putting vast effort into diplomacy, not war, and if all were pacifist one of the very greatest evils, and seedbeds of further evil would cease to exist.”

How sweet of you Lucy, to understand the true nature of mankind as you do. Thank Christ we have no women bishops in this country yet, or otherwise your bullshit might make print.

1 September 2014 at 23:37  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Lucy

Yeh. If only people had listened to Neville Chamberlain, we could have had peace in our time.

We have the world we have. It's the only world we can inhabit. If you desire to live in a world more compatible with tea and cupcakes and the gentile sensibilities of the parlor, then I suggest you write a novel.

In the meantime, you should be thankful for the men who were willing to carry rifles up that hill, and kill the German soldiers on the top of it. They have to carry that knowledge - faces they can't forget.

What they had to do was no game.

carl

1 September 2014 at 23:42  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector

Is that what you believe Christianity is about? Guilt over being alive? What very odd views you hold. Jack does not know whether to laugh or cry at your comments.

Peter Simpson

And Stephen's last words as he was dying, “Lord, do not hold this sin against them”?

Why not?

Mercy overcomes Justice because of the Love of God.

Jack believes Jesus was asking for the offer of forgiveness of all sin to made to all men. Mercy in the place of Justice because of Love. However, as you say, the offer has to be accepted. Stephen was praying too that people would come to an acceptance of Christ and seek this forgiveness.

Carl

Surely everyone has the right to exercise their own conscious when it comes to war and suffer the consequences?

You don't believe in Just War theology, others do. Amongst those who don't are committed pacifists. What is a man to do if he believes war and killing is unnecessary in particular circumstances or just plain wrong? Shoot to miss, as reported by bluedog above, is more cowardly and dangerous.

Martin of Tours, no coward or weakling, a serving soldier, declared in 336 "I am a soldier of Christ. I cannot fight" and was jailed for this.

Others believe this passage indicates pacifism. "He that shall lead into captivity, shall go into captivity: he that shall kill by the sword, must be killed by the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints."

Jack does not subscribe to conscientious objection, personally. However, he accepts it exists and is not, in itself, an indication of cowardice - moral or physical.

1 September 2014 at 23:46  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Jack. You’ve been rather slovenly of late, so stand to attention, and cap off as you are hearing this...

The early Christians held a meet. The subject was thus. Should the word be extended to gentiles or kept exclusively for Jews. The gentiles argument won. That is a rather significant development in Christianity in as much as it let the likes of your Inspector in. So, here he is, and not too impressed about the Woody Allen like ‘step on me if I annoy you’ flavour. There you have it. A northern European take on the word.

1 September 2014 at 23:53  
Blogger bluedog said...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BdrF7I87fd4

1 September 2014 at 23:53  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Inspector

Mosel or Gwoza awaits. What's keeping you? Out of that armchair. Go assuage your guilt by killing.

2 September 2014 at 00:42  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

IG in O
And how strange therefore by your reasoning that Jesus was not dragged fighting tooth and nail from the garden of Gethsemane, that he healed Malchus' ear, that he cried out for forgiveness for they know not what they do, that Stephen took this as his example, that the Kingdom of Heaven is characterised by the beating of swords into ploughshares, and the lion lying down with the lamb.

St Paul tells us that our battle is not with flesh and blood. "Not with flesh and blood"-pretty clear, is it not? So why speak as if it were?

Is it not enough to pray, to discern, to evangelise, and to be "wise as serpents and gentle as doves"? Just whistleblowing gets your life in danger, and there are brave souls who have done just that, as Roger Cook did.

Though mention one or two living ones on here and their issues and some folk would back off fast, though they might be quite gungho re this vile thing called war in theory, esp. if past fighting age and with no relations to volunteer for the front line.

If you love God and cherish the ten commandments you cannot also love war, as all ten are frequently and repeatedly broken in war. Rape and pillage predominate,adultery and killing flourish, covetousness, and lying rule the day, and the good Angels weep as the fruits of the spirit- love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, gentleness, and self control become a very poor and dwindled harvest.

2 September 2014 at 02:25  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

And I forgot to pay unqualified respect to John, who has understood and followed "the way" where Christ and St. Stephen went before. Some here speak of him as if he were cursed, but he will know himself blessed, for he will understand more about those Christian paradoxes than many of us do, through living them out. He is strong now for he has resisted till death. May God use and bless and equip him mightily.

@ Carl
I find cupcakes on average boring and not very good to eat. Nor do I recall reading any novels in which they feature. I have studied rather a lot and think you underestimate the genre. Try reading Jane Austen's famous description of the novel. My preference is for classics. Conrad is a favourite, and I really cannot recall any cupcakes there! Mrs Gould may offer cakes, but only in passing! She had other concerns... Perhaps a nice cupcake would have brought Mr Kurtz back to more civilised values...but sadly ...They "hold the mirror up to nature" and widen and challenge our perceptions at best.

2 September 2014 at 02:59  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

And I forgot to pay unqualified respect to John, who has understood and followed "the way" where Christ and St. Stephen went before. Some here speak of him as if he were cursed, but he will know himself blessed, for he will understand more about those Christian paradoxes than many of us do, through living them out. He is strong now for he has resisted till death. May God use and bless and equip him mightily.

@ Carl
I find cupcakes on average boring and not very good to eat. Nor do I recall reading any novels in which they feature. I have studied rather a lot and think you underestimate the genre. Try reading Jane Austen's famous description of the novel. My preference is for classics. Conrad is a favourite, and I really cannot recall any cupcakes there! Mrs Gould may offer cakes, but only in passing! She had other concerns... Perhaps a nice cupcake would have brought Mr Kurtz back to more civilised values...but sadly ...They "hold the mirror up to nature" and widen and challenge our perceptions at best.

2 September 2014 at 03:02  
Blogger Peter Simpson said...

Explorer asked, "Or, as a more general question about humanity, do people know what right and wrong is only after they have become Christians?"

Scripture teaches that unbelievers have God's law written on their hearts (Romans 2:15). Therefore they are without excuse for their sin and unbelief, as Romans 1:19-20 states - "Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse".

2 September 2014 at 06:00  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Jack

Surely everyone has the right to exercise their own conscious when it comes to war and suffer the consequences?

That isn't the issue. It's not about a CO following his conscience. It's about whether a COs conscience is properly formed. The CO position is to put it kindly Scripturally illiterate and morally self-centered. It might deserve some measure of tolerance but it doesn't deserve respect. The accusation against the soldier that is inherent in the position is both obvious and profoundly offensive.

carl

2 September 2014 at 06:03  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Lucy

Should I have made reference to cucumber sandwiches instead? I am pretty sure they feature in Agatha Christie.

carl

2 September 2014 at 06:06  
Blogger IanCad said...

bluedog @ 22:13


Yes, I remember reading similar figures.
Not sure if they applied to the regulars as well.

2 September 2014 at 08:27  
Blogger The Explorer said...

Peter Simpson @ 06:00

Thank you for your response.

That is my understanding too.

In which case, those committing the atrocities are aware of what they are doing, and are without excuse.

2 September 2014 at 08:38  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Carl

In the book 'Soldiers; diaries of fighting, killing and dying' based on secret transcripts made by British Intelligence in WW2 of captured German Officer conversations, there are many details of terrible atrocities done by the 'ordinary German soldier'. In one of the transcripts a German officer describes how he particularly disliked shooting small children. Not because his conscience told him it was wrong, but because you had to hold them up to shoot them and they squirmed making it difficult.

What would a CO's response to this be? The only effective option of waging war against such people wouldn't be open to them and more and greater tragedies would occur. Why? Because ultimately they would take the view that their conscience and their beliefs would be more important than a child's life.

Naturally they wouldn't put it this way, but that is the brutal reality of it.

It is also important to remember it is not only Islamic fanatics that can do evil things.

2 September 2014 at 09:15  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Lucy,

The problem with your argument is for diplomacy to succeed, there has to be people on both sides who wish to come to a lasting agreement and who are willing to compromise. Alas that is not always the case and some groups or leaders of nations are unappeasable and therefore war is the logical result, unless you either want to die along with those around you... or live in fear and slavery. This is what you are seeing with the terrorist activities in Iraq, Israel and Nigeria.

There is a saying that if Hamas laid down their weapons there would be peace: if Israel laid down hers there would be no more Israel and therefore no more Jews in it. 7,000,000 Jews dead or refugees and probably another 160,000 Israeli Christians, as well as Druze and other minorities, which would make the ethnic cleansing that is going on in Iraq look like a minor event. So I can't agree to this 'make love not war' hippy ideology.

In respect of the second paragraph at 23.22, that isn't the description of any western army I know. Not Britain, the US or Israel, all of whom have professional armed forces.

Perhaps you meant to describe IS or Hamas or boko haram, who are 'evil', who behead, crucify , torture,slaughter people in thousands, make women and children sex slaves, who hide behind human shields -the old,children, the sick- and have zero compassion for those whom they use to spread their terror and ideology around the globe.

2 September 2014 at 09:15  
Blogger Dreadnaught said...

Pity the poor sods who aren't alive to give their forgiveness - how unfair!

2 September 2014 at 09:44  
Blogger Peter Simpson said...

The point is simply this - it is not a Christian duty to forgive unrepentant terrorists, because God has not forgiven them. They know deep down that they are doing wrong, which compounds their guilt.

Yes, we pray for their repentance, and if we overcome them, we seek no revenge, but only their good (which includes appropriate justice), but forgiveness is not possible unless they repent.

God's love never bypasses His justice. Forgiveness is only possible because justice upon sin was first satisfied at the Cross. So Christian forgiveness incorporates justice, not ignores it. God Himself chooses not to forgive without repentance, and His ways are perfect.

2 September 2014 at 09:52  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Gentle Lucy. This world was not meant for you to make sense of. Best stay at home and suckle the young. It takes the reasoning of men to make what we can of the disquiet we find. Your continuing involvement utilising a woman’s mind never meant to be used for deep thought will invariably give you the vapours, which we know, will occasionally lead to collapse.

2 September 2014 at 11:48  
Blogger Owl said...

Very interesting comments.

If someone attacks my child, I will defend him or her with every weapon available to me.

A father protects his children to the best of his ability.

These maniacs should be resisted with every weapon available to us.

Anything else is a lie. Resisting the Nazis also was a lie and the dead of WWII were wasting their time and completely wrong.

I am tired of the humbug.

We are witnessing the evil and doing nothing. For what do we have our armed forces?

2 September 2014 at 12:20  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

IG in O
You really don't get it, do you. John got it. Ghandhi in this respect did. Jesus did. So did St Stephen. So did Bonhoeffer, the truth and reconciliation committee in S.Africa, and countless others, no doubt all as thick as can be by your eloquent and nuanced reasoning far above that of any feeble woman such as I (cough, choke).

Twit.

You underestimate the power of prayer, kindness, and directing calm appeal to the other person's conscience.

Ever heard of Vaclav Havel and the velvet revolution?

As for Islam there is a touching video on youtube by a former Islamic militant who went to the US intent on violent jihad. He went to Texas as he figured the Bible belt was the toughest nut to crack. He fell ill. He was admitted to hospital and they saved him. A Christian doctor and his wife took him in, nursed him back to health and helped him with the hospital bills. He was turned completely around and is now a Christian himself. Perhaps it is better to learn from this rather than ceaseless tirades against Muslims.

@ David
Greetings.
As for Western armies John Carey's "Oxford Book of Reportage" has some gruelling eyewitness accounts which might change your perceptions.

As for Israel the demographics going forward necessitate diplomacy and talking to each other; there's no other way. But many Israelis will talk of villages where they grew up alongside Palestinians and were all friends, which shows it is possible.

2 September 2014 at 12:33  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Lucy, being called a twit by you necessitates a serious rethink on all my stances on just about everything. But not today love, eh ?

Put the kettle on will you. And don’t expect prayer to boil the thing, otherwise we’ll be here all week and more and the master wants his tea now !


2 September 2014 at 13:05  
Blogger bluedog said...

Lucy @ 12.33, do you mean the Faber Book of Reportage by John Carey, first published in 1987? I've been to his website and don't see an 'Oxford' book.

One senses that you're not one of these progressive women whose idea of equality is to be allowed to join up as a storm trooper.

2 September 2014 at 13:07  
Blogger Inspector General in Ordinary said...

Lucy, by the way, on the subject of turning evil Johnny Mohamed into a decent Christian by pulling a thorn from his foot...

...Oh, forget about it. Why make a point, your sweet girlish mind wouldn’t take it in.

2 September 2014 at 13:10  
Blogger Hannah said...

Hi bluedog,

What's up, don't you love a girl in uniform?

2 September 2014 at 13:16  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ bluedog
Apologies yes I meant Faber book of Reportage.

I think he wrote at least one Oxford book, and then of course he has the odd Oxford connection! -hence the confusion.

The book requires a strong stomach -but then he has never been one to dodge the grimmer side of life!

2 September 2014 at 13:20  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Lucy

'You underestimate the power of prayer, kindness, and directing calm appeal to the other person's conscience'

To be honest anyone who can shoot a child through the head or decapitate them isn't going to be put of by a man in a loin cloth. Gandhi himself admitted that if Britain had been a different type of power passive resistance wouldn't have worked. And didn't Bonhoeffer himself come to the conclusion that passive defence wasn't enough against the Nazis?

There is nothing wrong with trying to avoid war and their is nothing about war that doesn't represent failure. But what you haven't answered if it was your child with a gun at its head what would you do? Pray or kill the man if you could,

2 September 2014 at 13:38  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Clive Mitchell

You have expressed the reason why I called the CO morally self-centered.

And Lucy ... You should ask the dead of Sennecharib's army what they think of the pacifism of second person of the Trinity. And then you should read Rev 19. You are confusing the responsibility of a Christian with the responsibility of a citizen. Those are not the same things.

carl

2 September 2014 at 14:15  
Blogger David Kavanagh said...

Lucy,

What you didn't address is the fact terrorists were raining missiles into Israel and have no intention of ever surrendering until the whole of Israel is destroyed and her people with it. So tell me how can one come to a lasting peace with a leadership who has a mentality like that? Do you think Israel should simply let that happen without a fight? If terrorist organisation was throwing missiles into your down, would you ask for Ghandi or the British army?

Ps Don't worry about demographics :Israeli Jews are having something of a baby boom at present, with an average of increase of 2.5 children in the 1990s to 3 children per woman today, so well above that of western Europe & different in the western world and whose birth rate is out pacing the Arab one quite nicely. Along with that and increasing immigration, Jews will continue to be a majority in Israel. This shouldn't surprise as love making, life & family are all part of the picture in Judaism.

2 September 2014 at 14:34  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Carl
"You are confusing the responsibility of a Christian with the responsibility of a citizen".

Are you suggesting we should compromise massively with the ways of the world and indulge ourselves with the notion that "my country right or wrong" will pass muster with Christ on the day of judgment?

"He who loses his life will find it."

John understands that. There is no copping out, and personally I see no praiseworthy courage in being gungho about sending other people's sons to pre-empt possible trouble or shore up the petrodollar, when money spent in the same quantity on diplomacy might achieve so much more.

What did "winning" the first world war achieve? A treaty which created the second world war. Was it predictable and intentional? I have no idea.

You are told in school what a bad guy Kaiser Wilhelm was and then later you discover he was a devout Christian who felt forced into war by the Allies, thought he was being punished for not being a freemason, and spent his remaining years in a simple life of prayer. Was he right or wrong or partly right? Sane, partly sane, or largely unbalanced? Who triggered the assassination of the Archduke Ferdinand? Who and what were the blackhand gang? So much propaganda, smoke and mirrors it is hard to disentangle.

All I see is a monumental tragedy of a vast amount of human suffering. And some who knowingly triggered that. Whoever they were they were complete and utter slimeballs.

2 September 2014 at 15:10  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Lucy

"You are told in school what a bad guy Kaiser Wilhelm was and then later you discover he was a devout Christian who felt forced into war by the Allies, thought he was being punished for not being a freemason, and spent his remaining years in a simple life of prayer. "

Where did you get that rubbish? Absolute nonsense. There is plenty of reputable books out there that will give you a realistic picture.

2 September 2014 at 15:17  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ Clive
"Where did you get that rubbish?"

Well it's easy enough to find photos of his post war days, and descriptions of his daily routine then.

As for his beliefs they are undisputed.

As for what he believed re the start of WW1 it is documented in ch X of his memoirs, a primary source, to which this is the link:

www.yamaguchy.com/library/cikkek/wilhelm2_10.html

Was he right? I don't know. Was he of only average intelligence, as some historians claim. Well the linguistic ability here suggests that is not very accurate. Was he a nervy man? Seems likely.

2 September 2014 at 16:38  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Lucy

Decided I needed to give a fuller reasoning.

The Kaiser probably was forced into the war, but by his General Staff and his Chancellor. What he believed is irrelevant. They were able to do it as he was a boastful braggart, with a limited concentration span, who was easily manipulated.

He also spent his declining years blaming everyone else for his fall from power and taking no personal responsibility. Amongst those he blamed where Jews, many of his pronouncements were extremely anti-Semitic. (Although he did express shame at Hitler).

He also sent Hitler a letter of congratulations following his the German victory over France.

Whatever else he was, he was no model of Christian piety.

2 September 2014 at 16:43  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Lucy

No, you are confusing categories.

I am saying:

1. A Christian can be an officer if the magistrate.

2. His divinely ordained responsibilities as an officer of the magistrate are different from his responsibilities in his private life.

3. One if those divinely ordained responsibilities as an officer of the magistrate is to kill when circumstances warrant.

An officer of the law does not turn the other cheek. He does not give a coat to the one who takes a cloak. He does not forgive seventy times seven. He enforces the law. If need be, he kills.

Now, you can deny this by saying a Christian can never be an officer of the magistrate. Bur then we gave a completely different argument.

carl

2 September 2014 at 16:46  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Lucy

Btw you still haven't answered my question?

2 September 2014 at 16:54  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl
"You are confusing the responsibility of a Christian with the responsibility of a citizen. Those are not the same things."

The just war tradition does not assume that war is evil it teaches that in the right circumstances and right conditions war can be necessary and sometimes the only means of preventing evil. Judging those conditions belongs to the elected politicians - Caesar - not bishops.

"Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar’s, and to God the things that are God’s."

However, no man can impose his spirituality on another.

If met the conditions render war a sacrifice of lives in order to combat evil and restore the order on which peace depends.

"Those who wage war justly are not opposed to peace, except to the evil peace", said St Aquinas. St Augustine said, "We do not seek peace in order to be at war, but we go to war that we may have peace". And CS Lewis commented, "If war is ever moral, then sometimes peace can be sinful".

2 September 2014 at 17:29  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

It also depends on your definition of peace. Walking away from a massacre doesn't create peace, it leaves behind injustice.

2 September 2014 at 17:45  
Blogger carl jacobs said...

Jack

Judging those conditions belongs to the elected politicians - Caesar - not bishops.

(Cough) Unam Sanctam (Cough) Two Swords Doctrine (Cough)

carl

2 September 2014 at 17:48  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ clive

I gave you links and references that showed you where I sourced primary documents that supported the assertions of what he thought, and raised questions of how much of what he asserts can or cannot be verified and to what extent.

Few see the First World War as great any more, regardless of whether like me you had relations who died for King and country and also some decorated for bravery. It was a shameful waste of youth, hope and talent. Maybe as the war of the Roses was originally called it was a cousins' war, maybe something worse again. Whatever, it was horrific.

2 September 2014 at 18:29  
Blogger Lucy Mullen said...

@ clive

I gave you links and references that showed you where I sourced primary documents that supported the assertions of what he thought, and raised questions of how much of what he asserts can or cannot be verified and to what extent.

Few see the First World War as great any more, regardless of whether like me you had relations who died for King and country and also some decorated for bravery. It was a shameful waste of youth, hope and talent. Maybe as the war of the Roses was originally called it was a cousins' war, maybe something worse again. Whatever, it was horrific.

2 September 2014 at 18:30  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Lucy

Apologies my sources are books. Kaiser Wilhelmina II A Profile in power and also various histories of WWI of a more general nature. Nothing I said was new or controversial.

Now I have answered your query re my sources, when are you going to answer my question regards your willingness or otherwise to defend a child?

2 September 2014 at 18:41  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

Wilhelm! Auto correct strikes again!

2 September 2014 at 18:43  
Blogger IanCad said...

Lucy scarcely needs me to defend her but -- I'm seeing why those poor dachshunds got such a beating from the mob one hundred years ago.

2 September 2014 at 19:16  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

Carl
"(Cough) Unam Sanctam (Cough) Two Swords Doctrine (Cough)"

You should get that cough treated. What's the problem?

"That there is only One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church we are compelled by faith to believe and hold, and we firmly believe in her and sincerely confess her, outside of whom there is neither salvation nor remission of sins.....

Furthermore we declare, state and define that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of all human beings that they submit to the Roman Pontiff."


And the issue is? This is about spiritual submission to the Church as Christ's Body and to the Pope as His representative.

Pope Boniface VIII taught that there is only one Kingdom, the Church, and that the Church controls the spiritual sword, while the temporal sword is controlled by the State, although the temporal sword is hierarchically lower than the spiritual sword, allowing for Church influence in politics and society at large.

Those were the days when the Divine Right of Kings was accepted. The monarch's legitimacy came from faithful membership of the One, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

2 September 2014 at 19:21  
Blogger Clive Mitchell said...

IanCad

Having an adult debate that's all.

2 September 2014 at 19:54  
Blogger bluedog said...

Hannah @ 13.16 asks, 'What's up, don't you love a girl in uniform?'

Ooooh yes Hannah, black leather and with a whip for when I've been a naughty boy.

On second thoughts that may be more OIG's line.

2 September 2014 at 22:11  
Blogger bluedog said...

HJ @ 19.21 says, 'The monarch's legitimacy came from faithful membership of the One, Catholic and Apostolic Church.'

Only partially. Absolute monarchs used lineage as a mark of legitimacy. We can see that in Henry VIII's choice of wives, all of whom where direct and legitimate descendants of King Edward III, the Plantagenet patriarch. Implicit in this uxorious strategy is the idea that the children of these unions would be able claim their own legitimate descent from EIII. Henry's descent from EIII came through his mother Elizabeth of York, whose legitimacy was revoked by the Act of Parliament Titulus Regius.

2 September 2014 at 22:34  
Blogger Happy Jack said...

bluedog

True, and all terribly complicated, but rule in a manner deemed unchristian or play fast and loose with proper hereditary linages, and the Pope was there waiting to excommunicate you and your legitimacy would be undermined. Wasn't that a driver of the Reformation? It was as much political as it was spiritual.

3 September 2014 at 00:40  

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